Microsoft claims Android is being leveraged to strong-arm manufacturers into using Google Services


Microsoft is leading a pack of tech companies filing yet another complaint with the European Commission against Google. This time, they are going after Android. The group known as FairSearch, which also includes Nokia, Oracle, and others, is accusing Google of using its dominance in the mobile market to strong-arm OEMs into using Google services such as Search, Maps, and YouTube on their devices.

The group says Android is being used as a “trojan horse” to spread Google’s suite of mobile applications to the large share of mobile users with phones and tablets running the operating system. FairSearch sees the offering of Android for free to manufacturing partners as a way to force the companies to deploy Google’s applications.

It’s not a surprising claim that Google is leveraging Android to spread its other services. Google’s main revenue stream is advertising, so Android is a profitless enterprise if Google can’t lure more users into their ecosystem all the while cashing in on display ads. But Microsoft and company’s claim that Android’s dominance creates a competitive disadvantage for others might be harder to prove. In this case, Google might actually point to Apple’s successful iOS ecosystem as an argument against these accusations.

But the European Commission has come down on Google in the past. The body has a tenuous relationship with the American tech giant. In October of 2012, the Commission deemed Google’s privacy policy not up to snuff, giving the company four months to comply with recommended changes. In response to the latest accusations, Google only said, “We continue to work co-operatively with the European Commission.”

[via BBC | Thanks, El Presidente]

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  1. I’m probably missing the point but what do they want Google to do? Stop giving android away or start charging for an open source OS? Didn’t Microsoft use windows to strong arm people into using their services?

    1. Shoe is on the other foot now.

      1. So they’re crying cause someone is using their tactics? They’re still using ie and windows media player as defaults in windows.

        1. not in Europe, you have to pick your browser….

        2. Not IE as a default in Europe to my knowledge. I believe they have to offer a browser choice screen.

          But it doesn’t matter because there’s no strong-arming going on here. Nobody is being forced to do anything. You can use Android without Google services and Google has perfect examples in Amazon, Barnes & Noble, OUYA, and others. Heck, here we have Microsoft crying and they have an investment in Nook which DOESN’T use Google services. It makes the most sense from a business perspective, but it’s still a choice.

        3. No, they’re crying because someone figured out how to get people to use optional services voluntarily. With the exception of Office, Microsoft could never figure out how to write code that people actually *want* to use, versus *had* to use.

  2. Isn’t the whole point of android to serve as a vehicle for Google’s services?

    1. Yes… But that’s not fair!

    2. It is. But the claim is that Google is FORCING manufacturers to include Google services, which simply isn’t true. Being a member of the OHA and using Android with Google services is completely voluntary. Look at the Kindle Fire, Nook, and OUYA. And notice how none of the alleged “victims” (i.e. the manufacturers) are included in this claim. It’s because nobody here is being strong-armed.

      Is it unwise to use Android without Google services? In most cases yes, but Google isn’t forcing Anyone (well, except Motorola) to use Google services.

      1. By Motorola, meaning themselves? … now that they are one company.

        1. Though really Motorola was only using Android quite some time before Google made that purchase. In that sense I wouldn’t really count them as being forced into anything.

      2. Is the claim that they’re forcing 3rd Party manufactures to use Google services or that by having so many phones running Google services by defaults it’s uncompetitive.

        1. I believe it’s more of the same nonsense that Microsoft went through with IE.
          Because Android is so large, now other companies are worried that it will stifle any chance of them getting ahead.

          The problem isn’t that anyone is being forced to use a particular product, it’s because the general population is stupid and can’t think for itself.

  3. Microsoft, Nokia, Oracle…so basically all the manufacturers who are having keeping up with the lead are taking a dive and claiming foul?? Trojan horse implies something bad hidden inside something you else. I don’t see Google hiding their services. In fact, Android even provides the ability to Disable any application including their own if you so wish. Manufacturers are free to include or exclude Google Services as they wish.

    Besides, it’s no different to Microsoft including IE with Windows. Which I also feel isn’t right that MS is forced to provide other default browsers. If MS want to include IE as the default browser with Windows then that should be fine.

    1. Just look at the Amazon Fire line of tablets, if Google was strong arming them then they wouldn’t have their services instead of Google’s. How about Microsoft make an Android phone and replace gapps with their services, perhaps they may become relevant in the mobile world.

      1. Haha! Just imagine Microsoft making a Windows product that people could install their own skin over and completely nix Microsoft services if they wanted in favor of their own browser, file manager, app launcher, etc. If anyone needs a slap on the wrist it’s Microsoft over Google for putting “trojans” in their software.

    2. Trojan horse doesn’t always imply something bad hidden, and Google IS using Android as a Trojan horse for Google services. It’s the only reason Google funds the project. But they aren’t forcing anyone to use their services. These are choices OEM’s make openly and some even decide against using Google services (Amazon, Barnes & Noble, OUYA).

      And yes it IS different than IE being bundled with Windows. That’s not a choice. A manufacturer can’t say “Nah, we don’t want to include IE in our computers.” And that’s a bad example because in Europe Microsoft was fined for that EXACT behavior and now have to offer a “browser choice” screen in Windows. In Europe, IE isn’t installed by default.

      But again, it’s important to understand the distinctions here.

      1. I somewhat disagree, calling something a “trojan” has pretty specific connotations. I mean if we’re calling Android a torjan for Google services then Windows is a trojan, OSX is a trojan, and pretty much every OS on every device ever is a trojan. The whole point of an OS is to offer people a certain set of services that are usually provided by the OS maker, with the notable exception of many Linux distributions (though arguably even some distros push their specific services, such as Canonical’s Ubuntu platform and services) that are completely open source. So in that sense why aren’t we calling ALL OSes trojans? We don’t because that’s just silly. Whatever your definition of a trojan is or how loosely you label things a trojan I think it’s misleading at best.

        On the whole I get where you’re coming from and I think it’s true that Android is meant to further Google’s services. But the intention of Microsoft is clear, they are calling the kettle black and hoping no one notices. And they obviously hate Google with a passion what with Steve Ballmer dissing on Android publicly every chance he gets and Microsoft even putting money into advertising their hate (#DroidRage Twitter campaign for example).

    3. I know, pretty messed up that I can disable apps from the maker of the OS, but Verizon’s crap apps? Nope, I’m stuck with those on my phone and I can’t even disable them. If you ask me someone should be suing carriers over Google for their corrupt practices.

  4. And integrating IE in with Windows was what, then?

    1. Bad example if you are in support of Google. Microsoft got slapped with a major fine in Europe over that.

      1. That was my point. Google provides interoperable services you can choose to use. Microsoft provided integrated services you HAD to use. They have little ground to complain.

        1. I see your point. In Microsoft’s defense Google snitched them out and they got fined lol. But yeah I personally don’t feel Google is in the wrong here, especially considering Apple/iOS.

      2. Well everyone has had to use IE once at least….. To download other browsers.

        1. I think in Europe that is not true. When you install windows it prompts you asking which browser you would like.

          1. Maybe in europe of course I haven’t been lately to verify.

        2. And you had to wait like 20 minutes before you were able to download that browser because you had to go through so much bull just to run the internet.

      3. Well not too bad of an example since IE is pretty universal, and it clearly hasn’t stopped or even slowed Microsoft from doing it. Only with the advent of third party browsers that are better then IE has it finally begun to erode MS’s cold hard grip on consumers.

        1. I’m not talking about in the US.

          Microsoft just got in trouble. They have to offer a browser choice in the EU.

    2. These cases almost never have anything to do with right and wrong or even whats technically logical. Its a method of using the law to compete. It sucks but its business as usual.

    3. MS should complain also that ChromeOS must separate the browser from the OS… What do you get when you do that?

  5. So Apple is using iOS to leverage everyone using itunes. Good grief. Same thing

    1. I think that’s worst because you can’t disable it or do anything without itunes on your iOS device….with Android you are not forced to use whatever services these crybabies are crying about…

      1. It is worse but the claims revolve around monopoly power. Since Android’s market share has surpassed iOS’, Google is the one most at risk for having abuse-of-power claims filed against it. But like I’ve said before, it doesn’t matter. Google has tons of ammunition to fight this claim.

        First, anyone can go and download Android without Google services included because it’s open source. Secondly, Google has plenty of examples of OEM’s using Android WITHOUT Google services such as Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and OUYA. Heck, throw Blackberry in there too for their emulator. There’s no proof of strong-arming because it’s not strong-arming, it’s a choice.

        1. But yet how is it abusing power when each of these companies do the exact same thing google is doing? Actually the funny thing is that Google is the only one offering their services across all platforms well besides microsoft but they have barely any share of the market worth toting. Google shared their services among iOs counterparts our biggest rivals from day one.

        2. Remember when Verizon was forcing some phones to use Bing as the search engine and not Google? If that isn’t open for manufacturers I don’t know what is.

  6. Even if you’re not an Android or Google fan, I would hope most people see that this is a ridiculous claim. Of course Google is gonna utilize the success of its platform to bolster it’s products. Hey Microsoft, when you start pre-loading PC’s with Chrome instead of I.E. or Quicktime over Windows Media Player, come back and we’ll discuss.

    1. Again, bad example. Microsoft got slapped with a huge fine in Europe for not allowing browser options in Windows. And now has to allow you to choose your default browser when you install. The Apple/iOS is a better example to use if you want to prove your point.

      1. A browser choice screen is not the same as pre-loading with the competitors offering. IE and it’s framework are still sprinkled all over the O/S, even today. MS software is still proprietary and closed source, you have no way of knowing if they have exposed the entire API. They still make software like silverlight (Netflix) that won’t work on every platform. There IE web browser has single-handedly held back the entire web development community (for years) from moving onto newer HTML5 and high performance JS implementations.

        The reality is MS has rarely been innovative the past number of years and forces users to pay a lot for this lack of innovation. Now MS is mad because someone has out-innovated them and is giving it away for free.

      2. Except this is ONLY IN THE EU. Microsoft still does this in good ol USA

        1. Microsoft is leading a pack of tech companies filing yet another complaint with the European Commission against Google

          So is the complaint against Google.

          1. My point is that they are still good examples I mean essentially you get the point.

          2. I get it. What Google is doing in Europe is no different than what Microsoft is doing in the states. And actually what microsoft is doing is a bit worse.

  7. Hasn’t Microsoft been doing the same thing for years ?
    Hotmail,Internet explore,Bing, Microsoft office,directx etc.?

  8. There is a flaw in this claim. Android doesn’t require you to use any Google Services. Check Cyanogenmod and Kindle Fire HD for example.

    Cyanognemod was asked specifically by Google to not to include their services with the ROM! You also have to really hack Kindle Fire HD to get any Google Services work on it!

    Microsoft doesn’t really grasp what it means to be open source…

    1. It’s also important to note that Microsoft and Nokia are included in this claim.

      Microsoft directly supports an example to the contrary of their claim through their investment in Nook. Does the Nook use Android? Yes. Were they forced to use Google services? No.

      I believe Nokia supplies the mapping data for the Kindle Fires. Again, do the Kindle Fires use Android? Yes. Were they required to use Google Maps? No.

      So here we have two of the accusers directly funding examples to the contrary!

      1. I agree! Good points!

      2. Don’t confuse the courts with facts!

    2. +1

      MS claiming that offering something for free FORCES the users to use it ?


      I hear the same attitude from some people who pirate my apps; as if I’m forcing them to run my app.

      1. In addition to that, and even more ironic, is that Microsoft pushes all their services on their users, except they make make you pay for it too.

    3. Android being open source has nothing to do with the licensing requirements of Google’s services, those are all proprietary..

  9. Yea, as the old saying says, ‘It takes one to know one’.

  10. Sounds like turnaround is fair play. I remember when Microsoft was accused of anti-trust violations for trying to leverage windows into forcing other internet browsers out of the market, by bundling explorer on all windows pc’s.

    1. They weren’t just accused, they were found guilty. But it’s important to understand that this is different. Manufacturers were forced to ship Windows with IE. Manufacturers aren’t forced to ship Android with Google services.

    2. they were fined $1billion

  11. This is the POT calling the KETTLE black.

  12. Google IS using Android as a Trojan horse for their services, but nobody is forcing anybody. Being a member of the Open Handset Alliance is voluntary as is using Google’s services on Android, but Android is vastly more useful with them. It’s interesting none of the parties involved in this accusation actually use Android and would be “victims”.

    Using Google services on Android is a choice. It just also happens to be the best business decision.

  13. Microsoft’s bullying ways continue. Tactics like this make only reinforce my desire to use any product but Microsoft ones. Microsoft appears to be losing so instead of producing better products attacks those who are innovating.

    1. I agree. I haven’t traditionally been opposed to using Microsoft products, but this is making me shy away from them. Well that and I made the mistake of installing Windows 8 on my laptop. I now actively avoid my laptop in favor of my Nexus 7. Plus I’ve migrated almost completely to Google Docs.

    2. It’s been a long time since i haven’t bought a microsoft product, they try to sue Linux and racket Linux company, and now they are doing the same thing with Android.
      Microsoft invest more in lawyer fees than in RND

  14. I just hope entire Android Alliance come out to the court as a group to prove the MS’s claims wrong.

  15. Are you serious? Windows 8 and Windows Phone do the same thing. Microsoft is mad they’re losing every single battle. PC’s = Failing, Smartphones = Fail, Next Gen Console = Likely to fail, Bing = Fail, IE = Fail, Skype = Fail. The Microsoft era is out the “window”.

    1. I see what you did there.

    2. Well I wouldn’t sink the Xbox franchise just yet. That said, if I buy a next gen console it will be of the Sony variety for sure, though that has more to do with not wanting to pay for Xbox Live every stinking year. If I had to choose all that next gen tech at current ecosystem setups I’d choose the PlayStation over Xbox just for that reason alone. But clearly there are plenty of people who don’t mind the extra fees and pain with dealing with Microsoft and will go out and buy the next Xbox just because they bought the last gen Xbox and now have brand loyalty. Though quite frankly, the way things are going if a person was to move to a new console ecosystem now would be good since many current titles won’t work on the upcoming systems..

  16. Sorry Microsoft and friends, I choose to use Google products over yours. That is my choice and Google is only providing a package of services that I want – not forcing me to use those services.

    1. These lawsuits need to consult real users. I use Google products because they do what I want and they do it right, and they do both of those things as a group of products.

  17. Does windows come with Chrome that why should android come with Bing

  18. Google just needs to show off the phone that Verizon Binged the hell out of!

  19. Here is an easy one Microsoft, make Office available for Android. On the contrary Microsoft is the one strong arming here. You can use GDrive and all other Google Services on any Windows platform. Microsoft is the one restricting Office to Windows Phone and strong arming people that are dependent on Office to using Windows Phone.

    1. Oh and offer other products like IE on Android. Doubt anyone wants IE but that’s the users choice.

  20. Cry more, M$

  21. I gonna file a complaint against Microsoft because they never release office for Linux and/or Android

    1. Haha! Well yeah, but I’m too busy using LibreOffice and Kingsoft instead to really care about actually getting Office on Linux.

  22. Right…..and that’s why the #1 Android tablet manufacturer, Amazon, is FORCED to allow you to use Google Apps. Their tablets wouldn’t work without it………oh…..wait….

    1. They practically do with Amazon their UI is terrible

  23. Microsoft is also using Windows phone to leverage everyone to use, outlook, Internet explorer, xbox live, bing and their cloud service… whats their point?

  24. LOL. Because people won’t download YouTube and gmail anyway. Everyone’s crying because Android does it the way its supposed to be. OHA for life

  25. microsoft is recoverring from being fined $1billion for internet explorer

  26. Go ahead, don’t use Google services on Android devices. Why don’t you ask Samsung how their Fascinate with Bing instead of Google worked out. OEM’s don’t use Google services because they are strong armed, they use Google services because they want to sell devices. Who would want an Android phone with a 3rd party map or Bing search. In the case of maps you could just d/l an app but you had to root the Fascinate to get rid of the Bing search in favor of Google.

  27. The fact that Windows 8 requires me to use outlook, outlook calender, have a outlook account, Internet Explorer and myriad of other pieces of crap known as the Windows ecosystem is not relevant? What hypocrites…

    1. It required me to use a damn microsoft account to login to my dang computer I was pissed like wth

      1. Not that I like to defend Windows 8 … but you can definitely still use local accounts, it’s just not obvious

  28. Microsoft is so lame. What hypocrites and sore losers.

  29. This is why we can’t have nice things

  30. I keep trying to give Microsoft a chance but every time I turn around they sink even lower. With the next Xbox it will require an always on internet connection to play games. Now this stunt and this is just this week. Google hurry up and make chrome os a use able desktop os already one where I can manage my devices from.

    1. I hope Android becomes a desktop choice but with all of the features of a true PC I won’t mind an ecosystem powered by Android

  31. Holy hell Microsoft, if this isn’t the pot calling the kettle black…..If you didn’t cram Internet Explorer down the throat of every Windows user it would have been taken behind the barn and shot long ago.

  32. If any company knows about strong-arming manufacturers to use its products that company is Microsoft, so they probably know what they’re talking about. :)

  33. “The group known as FairSearch, which also includes Nokia, Oracle, and others, is accusing Google of using its dominance in the mobile market to strong-arm OEMs into using Google services such as Search, Maps, and YouTube on their devices.”

    Why would they use anything else?

    Search? Google is undoubtedly the best here.

    Maps? Apple Maps? Not even Apple recommends you use that. Nokia and Bing Maps are okay but Google Maps is excellent and there’s no reasong NOT to use Google Maps on a platform where integration is likely to be tighter.

    YouTube? Hm. What’s the alternative? Veho? Flickr? Vimeo? They’re not bad but which service has by and far the largest constant user-base and is almost globally recognizable as a platform? Yeah, YouTube.

    Baseless or not, besides the fact that Android is open and (as ATT has shown) you can put whatever you want on there, Google offers some of the best services here.

    1. Hm…. So the companies that have been trying to catch a piece of pie from google are the ones in this crap makes sense

  34. This would be a problem if I didn’t buy my Android phone specifically BECAUSE OF the Google services.

    No, you know what? Microsoft has a point. Google has some nerve, making products that do things.

  35. Aww poor poor microsoft is it not fair that Google is beating you to shreds in every applicable area? aww make your crap better then

  36. Google blows…you are all such cheerleaders. Bing is way better, apple has iTunes for music, the Surface pro will dominate the business world in a few years, and the iPad is way better than any android tablet. You crazy “hipsters” and your cute little toy software

    1. Funny you say hipster and you use Apple products… Apple products are the hipsters products. Google is better than Bing in every way why don’t you try their test? I did and not once did I ever choose Bing google always won. Nexus 10> Giant iPod Touch(iPad) Nexus 7>(iPad Mini) Nexus 4 > (iPhone of any generation) go ahead have fun being an apple cheerleader while Android runs them into the ground in every applicable way.

    2. Riiiiiiiiigghht, because Windows 8, and Windows Phone sales are so superior to Google services right now it must mean that Bing, Windows Phone, and Microsoft are all superior to everything Google as well…oh wait…

  37. dafuq? I don’t see the option in windows phone to make the default search anything but bing? that sends more restrictive than android including easily disabled services…

  38. The sheer hypocrisy is astounding. I mean by that definition isn’t Windows itself a “trojan” for IE, SkyDrive, Office and other Microsoft services? And venturing into Windows 8 and Windows Phone only makes that comparison more stark.

    But in the end anyone could use Android and aside from requiring users to register for a Google account there is nothing requiring any user to solely use Google services at all. I could, if I wanted, not use gmail and instead use hotmail on my phone; I could not use the Chrome browser and instead use FireFox or one of the many other options; I could not use the YouTube, Currents, Drive, or Keep apps and opt for other video players, magazine style news, and cloud storage if I really wanted to. But do I use Google services instead of the alternatives? Heck yeah I do! A person would be crazy not to! I mean Android has such nice integration with Google services, that are a lot of times nicer and easier to use than Microsoft or other alternatives. Do I use other third party services in addition to Google services that are in competition to Google’s own apps? You bet! I have gmail and hotmail delivered to my phone, various social apps such as facebook, twitter, etc., in addition to Google+.

    So honestly I fail to see how I’m being forced to use anything I don’t want to. If I absolutely didn’t want to use any Google services I wouldn’t be using Android, I’d be using an iPhone, or a Blackberry, or Ubuntu Phone, or Tizen, or FireFox OS, or as a last resort, Windows Phone.

    But what Microsoft is really upset about is the fact that people prefer to use Google services, and by extension Android (not really the other way around as they claim in my personal opinion), over their lame services that have been either gathering dust or have been poorly implemented. Well I’m sick of Microsoft hate towards Google, and quite simply I would actually completely ditch Windows and other Microsoft products tomorrow if I could have everything using a Google OS that I currently have with Windows (Chrome OS unfortunately just won’t cut it for me). Oops! I think I just made Ballmer cry a little, and maybe have an aneurysm.

  39. Microsoft was burned by the bundling ruling and now is trying to use the argument against Google, not realizing that nobody is actually forced to use Google services either at the OEM or at the user level. Hell there are Android devices out that that don’t even deploy Google Play. Maybe Microsoft should unbundle XBox Live so that people aren’t forced to use that when operating Microsoft consoles.

  40. 90% of customers want and demand the Google features. If those features are not on the device they do not sell. This company is blowing smoke, look what happened to the iPhone 5 when they dropped Google Maps, there was major complaints, this goes with the Blackberry new OS, same issue. Google offers the best services, I would never buy any phone without Google, without Google there is no internet as far as I’m concerned. Google Rules.

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  42. As an Android fan I choose of my own volition to use Google services, because they’re improving all the time, and since I have no desire to switch from Android it seems the best option. *shrug* But this is ridiculous coming from Microsoft because Android’s Play Store has any app for anything from any company you want if they’ve developed Android apps and Android phones never REQUIRE you to use anything Google aside from a Gmail account. Ugh.

  43. For Microsoft it should be better to look in the mirror first. Microsoft itself does nothing else as giving their own apps, tools and services a competitive advantage. Because if you want to buy a new computer, what is pre-installed on this device? Right Windows and Windows tools! You don’t have the choice.

    Google gives his manufacturers, developers and users of Android devices the freedom of choice. As you can see how many differences their are between the different Android devices of the manufacturers.

    Apple and FB do abuse much more as Google of this kind of practices to give advantages to their own tools. Apple believers have usually praised the Apple’s products, because they pray them as “supposedly” the best (innovative) tools. If you can use the FB Phone (HTC First and later from other manufacturers), the user will be required to use the FB tools to get the best performances of his device.

    It’s clear that Microsoft only wants to tackle Google, because Google haves with his Android OS a very large market share in the EU and Microsoft haves already paid a lot of damages in the EU. Also Google haves taken a big market share in this market in the place where Microsoft with WP could have potentiel, but WP can’t participate in the mobile battle.

    It’s really childish from MickeySoft.

  44. Actually Android is one of the Google’s SERVICES-PRODUCTS, it’s not a monopoly from outer space which is being used by Google to spread its services.

    Android is a dominant smartphone/tablet player because of Google’s brand and TONS of its hard work.

    Microsoft-Nokia-others just can’t CREATE GOOD THINGS and try to blame somebody for their funny hardware, ugly software and AWFUL DAMAGED BRAND IMAGE.

    Microsoft-Nokia pathetic combo is at risk to destroy its relationships with Google’s tech partners.


    Ugly MSFT thinks that Android popularity is based on Android’s $0 price tag for vendors. And they are so happy that they create demand for it. HTC does nothing to push Android features or Google’s services. SAMSUNG does nothing to push Android features or promote Google’s services.

    Android popularity = Google LOVE.

    STFU, Microsoft/Nokia/Oracle/Facebook/others.

  45. How about the fact that it is really hard to buy laptop without M$ Windows on it…. I don’t their $hity soft but I still have to pay for it! That is… just can’t find words…

  46. lol. bunch of salty bitches

  47. Poor Poor MS….

  48. I wonder when they’re gonna start going after Google for Chrome OS. Microsoft has had to pay hefty fines in the EU for supposedly not giving enough browser choice, and Chrome OS really can’t give browser choice, since the browser is the OS.

  49. Yet Microsoft Phones are packed full of Bing this and Bing that! No choice, just BING! What a load of hypocrites!

    Dear Microsoft, I love Google, they have changed the mobile world more than any of your failing phone platforms have and have opened up so many fun programming opportunities for us developers. If you don’t like it then go flog your phones to someone else like your red-wing affiliates!

  50. This is quite hilarious how Microsoft is wining like the little beat down —– that it is now ! They need to take that a– whipping like a man and quite crying. They should have made a more intuitive Windows 8 which I have and like alright but there are to many hidden features and you basically need to take a college course to really learn the full breadth of it. This kind of reminds me of Apple and there law suits. Instead of taking the low road and suing for ridiculous and hypocritical law suits or in this case complaining they should just work harder on innovation and getting it right. No one ever said staying number one was an easy feat you have to work hard at it and keep fighting to either maintain it or get it back. Pitiful !

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