By It’s not often that I find myself criticizing Google and Android. That’s not to say they’re perfect, but most of the things they do are quite alright with me and I usually don’t care enough to say anything whenever I find the occasional oddity. There is just one issue I can’t keep quiet on, though: if I buy an app, I should be able to use it forever.
I recently strolled through my list of paid apps to see how they were doing in terms of updates and user reception. In my traversal, I came across three entries that I could no longer access: 360 Live (an Xbox Live application), Hello IM (a once-popular AIM client) and I Tweet – a Twitter client.
Upon tapping their entries, I’m met with a message that says “the requested item could not be found.” I know the exact reasons why these three applications are no longer available – Multiple Facets – the studio who made the Twitter and AIM clients – was added to Facebook’s team when they were working on their Android application. Their website no long exists.
Juan Xavier Larrea was the developer of 360 Live and his application was apparently pulled because he violated Microsoft’s terms of service. Odd, that, because the iPhone version of that same app is still available for free on the Apple App Store. I’m not saying he wasn’t telling the truth when pulling his application, but it’s fishy business regardless.
With a free application, a developer pulling it from the Android market isn’t so bad because you haven’t paid any hard-earned money for it. But I have a serious, serious problem with not being able to use or access something I’ve paid for. My sentiments are the exact same when dealing with iTunes and Amazon to download MP3s: if you lose your music in a freak accident, you’ll have to pay for it all over again. The problem with apps is that we don’t even have that option.
Google wants developers to make more money and they’ve implemented a lot of features and made a lot of changes to the Android market to help facilitate that, but it seems they forgot to consider those who help make developers their money in the first place – users!
Having experienced this first-hand, I can see why someone would instead prefer to pirate their applications. I’m not condoning it, of course, but I get where they’re coming from. I get why people are hesitant to buy games from GameLoft with such questionable DRM practices. I get why some people will refuse to download an application unless it’s free.
Google wants to protect developers, but they aren’t doing anything to protect users. I don’t care if an application is $.99 or $99.99 (there are some that have been that costly), I should not be at risk of losing it. The applications I bought were $2.99 (360 Live), $3.99 (I Tweet) and $9.99 (Hello IM). That comes out to nearly $17. I spent that much on a pizza yesterday, sure, but I was able to consume that pizza. I’m not able to use these apps anymore.
This hurts more than it helps. It doesn’t help at all, in fact. There was a point in time where I would so readily pay for an application that you couldn’t get me to put my wallet away. My friends still gawk at my list of paid apps wondering why I would dare spend money in the Android market. As an aspiring developer, I understand the amount of work and time that goes into making applications so I wouldn’t want anything else but to give developers what they deserve.
Now that I’ve seen how an application I’ve paid for can be taken away, I’m hesitant to buy more applications. There’s another Xbox Live application I could use to replace the one I’ve lost, but who’s to say it won’t happen again? The only app I’ve purchased in the past 3 months is PowerAmp, and that isn’t by accident. (It took me a long time to make that decision, too.)
I simply don’t feel comfortable dishing my dollars out in the Android market anymore. Imagine the taste you’re leaving in the mouths of tens (and maybe hundreds) of thousands of people who buy an application. That leaves a long-lasting negative effect.
There are a few changes I’d like to see in the Android market that helps users who purchase apps.
- Users should be notified of the change via the same Google account that the app was purchased with. Sometimes these changes happen in the dark without anyone realizing it until they can’t find the application anymore. An email can be automatically sent to users whenever a developer expressly elects to remove their application from the Android market. The email should include a reason as to why the application was removed. (This text would be mandatory and you’d only need to write it up at the time of removal.) If Google has to remove an application for reasons other than security, they should also be subject to the same.
- Users should receive refunds for those applications they’ve lost. I understand that – in other industries – you aren’t always entitled to keep what you pay for. When tangible items are lost or broken, a manufacturer won’t replace them or fix them without the user having met some sort of condition. (Whether it be them needing to be under warranty or them having to pay a premium to get things situated.) (Note: More on my reasoning can be found in the paragraphs following this list.)
- The developer should be afforded the option to refuse refunds. We understand it may be logistically difficult, complicated, or impossible for a studio to refund all of the money users have paid for their application. In such a case, Google should give them a host of options. Firstly, developers can choose to make the application free for all to download and keep it in the Android market with a disclaimer that the application has been “abandoned” (in not so exact words). If they would rather their applications not be freely available to users, Google should continue to host the application and only allow users who have paid for it to see it in the Android market. (Again, it should hold a disclaimer letting users know that it won’t receive updates.)
- Users should be afforded an option to remove that application listing from their list of applications. It’s a bit of a slap in the face to have to look at an application that you can’t use or can’t update anymore. It also takes up a lot of space in an already long list of applications.
With software – especially software that is downloaded over the air and that you are forbidden to make a copy of – things should be a bit different. In the music industry, Apple asks you to back up all of your music as there is no guarantee that you’ll be able to redownload all of it should you lose it.
There have been some cases where they allow users to redownload some or all of their songs, but they decide on a case-by-case basis. I think this is wrong and in the case of music, it’s just another reason why I’ll always prefer physical media over digital. It’s always a good idea to back things up, but Android doesn’t (natively) allow you to do this.
If you lose an application you’ve bought due to a software defect that requires a factory reset or a hardware defect that requires a new device and it isn’t available for download in the Market, users should be able to get their money back.Imagine a corporate employee losing the only $30 exchange application that’ll work with their employer’s servers – they’d probably need to get a whole new phone if they can’t find another application to replace it. (And $30 is pretty hard to swallow.)
This entire piece makes me sound like I think I’m entitled to something, but that’s not the message I’m trying to get across. I’m warning Google that failing to protect the people who make them AND the developers money in the first place could come back to bite them in the ass. Let’s just hope that they seriously consider this plea and do whatever they can to put paying customers at ease.
I’ve only had that happen with one app: Tetris. It’s back available in the Market, but it’s not in my purchased app drawer (not in my wife’s either). Supposedly, this is a Verizon issue, but still…we both paid for the app and we cannot access them anymore.
Hate on me all you want. But , I refuse to pay for apps I may lose. I have very few paid apps. As long as there is a refund period, I’ll pirate the few I need. Takes about 20 seconds. On rare occasions that a great developer puts a great app out at a good price, I buy.
Great article!
Instead of blaming Google, you should be blaming the developer. Just never buy from him again. That is how the rest of the world marketplace works. Just as you would not blame a mall owner for The Gap selling you shirts that fell apart, you should not blame Google for a lackluster app that a separate developer made.
But I do agree, there needs to be at least a two hour grace period to allow us to return the app. 15 minutes is very unfair.
@Alex I get your point, but software is a lot different from a brick and mortar store. Often times, you cannot reach these small developers to try and work something out or get more information on something if they’ve already hit the road.
And why shouldn’t I blame Google? They take 30% of the cash made from each sale through the market. All purchases go through GOOGLE Checkout. Google has some responsibility here.
Pirating apps, and then vaguely justifying it, is a terrible idea. The more it happens, the less likely good developers are to embrace the Android platform.
I have had Android since release and have yet to have this problem. While it obviously exists, and should be addressed, using at as an excuse to steal is pretty sad.
I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS ARTICLE. GOOGLE MANAGES THE MARKETPLACE IT CAN NOT CONTROL THE APPS.
C’mon .. really.. I agree the marketplace is like a mall if the store is not longer there you had to move on.. I think the marketplace needs a developer ranking thread next to the app and google should track developer user experience. Poor performance developers should be boot out of the market
Agree with AlexNC
I really don’t consider this Google’s problem. The hands-off approach is what makes the Android Market great. Just because Google taxes apps sold doesn’t put the responsibility on them. To use the same analogy, you don’t blame the mall for giving the seller space, the government for taxing the sale, or the credit card company for processing it, you blame the seller. However, I agree that notifications about installed apps that have been removed from the market should be better.
I’m the developer of SMS2PC and I totally agree with this guy. I would hate to think that If I pulled my app from the market people would have paid for an app they no longer can use. I even refund people who cant get the app working (pretty rare) weeks outside the refund window…
You guys are missing the point. If a mall or a store moves, the items you’ve purchased from there don’t. If you’re going to try and use that analogy, then at least make it fair.
The grace period has the least to do with what this article points out. I don’t know how Apple handles this situation but I don’t imagine they have any better a solution. In my stance, unless the app is pulled for some kind of legal related reason (i.e. Copyright violation, patent violation, etc) you should not be entitled to a refund.
Companies go out of business all the time. If Sony shut down tomorrow should I be able to sue them or demand a refund because I cant use PSN+ anymore. Well, I guess I can but I shouldn’t win.
Now, if a developer has to pull their app because they ripped it off, then yeah, I should be entitled to a refund in that situation, like what happened with that XBox Live App.
@mgfjd that is a huge ball of contradiction you wrote. If Google shouldn’t have hands-on control, then they should never have the power to boot a developer. They already do boot developers. (For severe reasons, at least.) Since when is a hands-on approach a bad idea, anyway? It’s a lot different from a walled garden approach, ala Apple.
You don’t blame the government who taxes the sale for the sale, but you can blame it for the sort of lackluster regulation that allows consumer rights to be ignored and trampled over.
@quentyn I completely agree with your article. If these changes were made to the market it would make users feel more comfortable purchasing something. I have very few paid apps and thats only because I can’t justify paying for something unless I know I will be able to use it no matter what happens.
I don’t get why so many people are disagreeing with this article.
Never happened to me I support all developers and wont’pirate because I have money shame on you poor Tim but I do agree with this article google should improve on this
B2L: They like to argue. An issue is not an issue, unless it happens to them. They make analogies that make no sense just to excuse the problems. Here’s an analogy for them. You buy a shirt. You get to wear it amseveral times, then without warning, Abercrombie and Fitch shows up at their house and takes the shirt right off of their back. Rock on Quentyn!
Although I’ve never personally had this sort of problem, I can see how it would be a problem for others who have gone through it. Nice article Quentyn. Nice refreshing read from the usual news. (:
Quentyn you can always do a chargeback with yuor credit card.
Welcome to digital distribution, you don’t own what you pay for anymore. It is here to stay. The content owners control everything now.
Why is this so hard to “fix”? All google needs to do is keep a backup or cache of the app, so people who purchased it can still access the download on their device. It’s not like google doesn’t have enough space to do this!
sounds like there needs to be a FileHippo for android apps.
And the 15 minute refund period is a joke–often you can’t even download and install a large app in that amount of time.
Developers should be WAY more worried about piracy on iOS than android. I jail broke my girlfriends ipod touch and downloaded a store that you can get nearly any application on the iOS market for free, download, and install all from the phone, it took zero technical know how and there are a LARGE percentage of people out their with jail broken iOS devices
@ comment 6 from Quentyn: I didn’t think Google took any of the money from the sale of apps. I was under the understanding that 70% goes to the developer and the other 30% goes to the cellular provider?
Things are fine the way they are. Software cannot be expected to be supported forever… take some examples:
1) MMORPGs — once the developer shuts doen servers you’re done.
2) windows 98 — sure they upgraded, but the fact remains that for you to upgrade, you need to pay again.
The idea that software should be supported perpetually is just absurd and greedy.
Okay, I don’t get it. Even if the app is removed from the market, it is still on your phone. I have 2 that are no longer in the mkt. I’ve saved the apks to my dropbox and will reinstall when and if I get a new phone or have to reset my phone. I understand your frustration, but I can still use my apps that are no longer in the market for whatever reason.
OMJ: You can not get a chargeback. I used to work in visa/mastercard disputes. First, you only have 60 days to dispute a transaction. Then, you could only get a chargeback according to the refund/cancellation policy. You would have to provide that for the dispute. You would not win.
start thinking for yourself. take responsibility in what you do with and put on your phone. For crying out loud, these new phones, if you can still call them that, are dual core, run in the Ghz range and the list goes on. At what point does it become a computer? I think we are already there and moving beyond it. Do you blame microsoft or mac when you get a virus on your home computer? No? because there isn’t a “marketplace” to download programs? Stupid. there isn’t any difference. it’s a program, you installed it, you’re dumb if you get burned by it. this smells of dancing smiley faces in your email that you get for free in exchange for a nice key logger that records your every move. grow up, take responsibility for your actions and stop looking to someone else to protect you. wimp.
I appreciate where Q is coming from, but it would be a nightmare to admin and manage so many apps. When Vlingo chose to make their app free due to redundancy from Google, I did not mind even though I paid $10 for Vlingo. It’s a great app. I actually lost my maps book app from Adaptdroid, but that was because he had suffered water damage to his PC and had to submit a whole new app to the market, which I paid for again because I love the app. The developer offered me a refund on my previous purchase, but I declined because I like his app that much. I did have Super Froggy Pro taken away from me after I had paid 2 or 3 bucks for it but I figured that was due to Konami laying the hammer down on infringment. Yeah it sucks that sometimes you will lose out on an app that you paid for, but it not a common occurence and there is always a reason why and it is usually a good reason. Heck, look at the folks who paid for a “lifetime” Tivo, only to have to have them replaced to other hardware due to changing technology. That a few hundred bucks they will not be getting back. This stuff happens from time to time. I for one, am not going to stop buying apps from the Android Market due to some apps falling off the face of the earth. There are many great developers out there who need and deserve the support, Q included.
@tim242 It has happened to me. a lot of the apps that came out early at launch are gone, I just think that I got fair use of the apps for my dollar that I paid for it before I lost it for good. And they aren’t STEALING the app back. It can stay on your phone as long as you don’t delete it, reset your phone, or get a new phone. And while you’re right I like to argue, I wouldn’t disagree if I didn’t believe what I’m saying. I agree the situation sucks, but I maintain it’s not Google’s responsibility. Also agree with Charlotte that the point is pretty moot if you can back up the APK, but acknowledge that you shouldn’t HAVE to do that.
Charlotte: If you have saved the apk, you have pirated the app. Then, some apps require checking for license. If the dev no longer supports the app, it won’t work. Alao, no updates.
This is not the answer to the larger issue, but there is a way to prevent this from happening. Root + Titanium backup… save your app backups (sync to Dropbox even). Take some power back? ;)
I had this happen to me with ‘Txtract’. I had it installed on my G1, Nexus One and Vibrant. During a wipe and flash of the Nexus, I wiped the SD card with the back up of it by mistake.
Thinking nothing of it, I went looking for it on the market again. There it sat, like before, but it wanted me to purchase it again. I was puzzled, I had already paid for it before. Installed it many times. So I hopped on their website and in bold letters right on top, it read “EXISTING TXTRACT PRO USERS CAN PROVIDE US WITH THEIR TRANSACTION NUMBER AND WE’LL ISSUE A REFUND FOR THE DIFFERENCE IN PRICE”.
I searched my inbox, who keeps email from almost two years ago, especially for a $5 app?
I repurchased the app, because I believe it is a good app. I did it with hesitation and defeat in mind. I could have emailed asking for my money back, they may have even given it to me. But it is a good product, and I want want to support our devs. I looked at it as $4 to the cause.
Couldn’t agree with you more, Quentyn. While others have made the argument that you wouldn’t go after a desktop software developer if they go out of business and no longer offer for download software that you’ve already purchased, that argument doesn’t hold water; if you’re at all intelligent, you will have backed up the installation file. Android does not support this natively, and until it does, measures need to be taken to ensure that end users are able to access the apps that they have paid for. I’ve never had this happen, myself, but I’ll gladly pour some out for all of my homies that have.
PS: The mall analogy doesn’t work, guys. There’s no reason to compare tangible vs. intangible goods.
Am I missing something here? I’ve always used AppMonster, which I downloaded from the Market, to backup all my apps to my SD Card. When I have switched phones, I have simply downloaded AppMonster to the new phone, inserted my SD Card in my new phone, and installed the apps from the SD Card.
I have always thought that being able to redownload an app from the Market was a convenience. But I never thought it to be necessary, and especially not indefinate.
I purchased a product so it should be my responsibility to back it up in case I suffer data loss. I don’t think the app should be available for redownload forever at no cost.
When you buy a video game, and then lose it, you can’t go back into Gamestop and request a new copy because you lost it. You have to buy it again!
I switched carriers and now can’t install some apps because it says that is not available on your carrier! I’m out $7! I hate carrier specific stuff, it’s stupid. And the developer won’t respond and Google is useless trying to help. Their platforms are great, but if there is a problem, no customer service.
@Miguel, I don’t think you’re really missing anything. I’ve never used AppMonster (I’m a root-lover, so I use Titanium Backup), but it looks like a solid app. Good find! However, you’re getting back into the wrong side of the tangible vs. intangible debate with your Gamestop analogy; a reference to Xbox Live or PSN would be more accurate, but you wouldn’t find them pulling games!
Step 1-Root
Step 2-Periodically back-up your Apps to your SD Card
Step 3-Periodically back-up your SD Card to your computer.
Step 4-Sit back and enjoy the peace of mind that, short of a nuclear attack, you can pretty much access any of those apps at any point.
This has never happened to me on Valve Steam or OnLive or my Kindle or the App Store but has happened to me on Android Market several times. I think it just needs to happen less.
Miguel: on your gamestop comment:
no, but if a game you bought at gamestop goes out of print your install CD/DVD doesn’t just vanish.
in android it does.
Thanks Quentyn for writing @ something diff than the “press release” we read on every board about everything. Folks, it’s called an editorial.
@ Kevin, rooting would solve this but not everyone wants to root. Couldn’t this also be accomplished by a backup to SD via MyBackup Pro or other app?
Kevin: While rooting is no big deal to us, it should not be required to protect your purchases. Do you know how many consumers even know what rooting is, much less the ones that do and choose not to.
Your non-condoning condoning of piracy … sucks.
I have two thoughts on all of this:
1. I agree wholeheartedly with the notification argument. I have had this happen to me for several “free” apps that just disappear. I would like to be notified, even if it is an automated form letter.
2. If the app is removed for being quasi-legal or illegal, then the app should be removed and the user may just be out the $$ spent and should be more careful next time. If the app is removed because the developer doesn’t want to sell or maintain it anymore… I should still be able to use it and not be locked out of it because the market won’t authorize the drm license anymore.
BTW for folks who are freaked out about actually paying a developer a dollar for a dollar’s worth of value, and for folks who are just flat out against paying for software, you can get all the free software you want. Just download the free Android SDK and write all the apps you want for free. You should be able to do this in less than a dollar’s worth of your time. Give it a shot and get back to us and let us know how it goes.
Or we can just copy the apk and refund. These devs are making more money than brain surgeons. They should provide more support than they do.
“…if I buy an app, I should be able to use it forever.”
IMHO, this is about personal accountability and responsible computing. You were sold an item, and lost it. You had an opportunity to backup your software when you first bought it, but failed to do so.
It would be wrong for Google to continue to distribute an application when the developer states that it should no longer be sold or distributed; Same thing applies in the case of applications in violation of the law, or found to be harmful.
EA is an abuser of the system. I am among hundreds, perhaps thousands, that have purchased EA apps and upon switching or resetting phones found that even though it shows that I’ve paid for an item, I can’t re-download it. Google needs to sort that type of thing out before concerning itself with an app that no longer exists.
I 100% agree. It doesn’t justify pirating apps but as it stands a majority of people don’t buy apps out of fear of loosing them which you can blame the small developers or the users themselves but blaming those two won’t bring more revenue to Android or spur adoption… Google can fix this even if it’s not entirely their fault or at all their fault.
@thedicemaster So maybe this is what I am ignorant about. Are you saying that if an app is deleted from the Market, it is also deleted from my phone? Without me deliberately uninstalling it?
If that’s true.. than that does suck.
An app of mine was recently pulled by google because wolfram alpha claimed I was violating their terms of service and scaling their site for content. However had they tested my app rather than just look at the name it would have been clear that my application didn’t do that or anything even close. I explained what my app does, why it doesn’t break the tos, and even gave them my source code as proof. My app was still pulled with absolutely no response from wolfram alpha. Google told me I would need to take it to court in order to resolve the issue even though google.com offers the exact same service (query site directly and launch result in browser)
@tim242 “These devs are making more money than brain surgeons”
LOL. What planet are you living on.
This could possibly be the most pointless app. Just use the phone!
You have mp3’s and after a freak accident you can’t use them any more & have to rebuy them? That’s the way it is.
You have vinyls & cassettes that are irreplacable, and after a freak accident you can’t use them any more? That’s the way it is.
You have bones in your body & as you get older they break, maybe in a freak accident, and you can’t use them any more & have to buy replacement parts? That’s the way it is.
Sound & fury, signifying nothing.
I agree that this is a sorry situation and one that Google should make some attempt to address. Retaining “abandoned” software in the Android market is probably the right call. Exposing APK backup capability as a basic OS option would hurt developers more as that would encourage even further piracy. The only way that’ll happen is if it comes with an oppressive DRM scheme, and I think that’s undesirable for everyone.
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That said, using this as some justification for piracy is beyond reason. Pirates will always come up with some vague generalization and obscure reason as to why they shouldn’t pay for something, even if they got fair use out of it for a time.
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@tim242, please rejoin the real world, where developers aren’t rolling around in bucketloads of money. I know because I’m a software developer and I know lots of other software developers. If being rich (like a brain surgeon) is your goal, software development is the wrong profession to be in. The vast majority of developers don’t get rich with a super-popular killer app.
I agree with you Quentyn. If you need a copy of that 360 Live app I backed it up before they took it off the market and it still works. Looking at old paid apps is very annoying to me and I wish there was a way to at least filter them out, I have 16 paid apps that I don’t use or are not on the market anymore so I feel your pain.
Down with this sort of thing…
Careful now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT9xuXQjxMM
FYI AppMonster doesn’t support all apps, it looks like it only supports app2sd apps. I think you need to be rooted in order to do that.
HubTub: When I make a decision to buy an app, I am buying it for use as long as I want or need to. I am not buying it for an undetermined amount of time, or fair use as you call it. Fair use is if I pay for it, it’s mine to use as long as I choose!
It’s for these reasons, I limit the amount of apps I have on my phone. My most used apps are the stock apps that will always be there. There are very few apps that are actually needed on my phone. My top 5 most used apps are: 1. Stock Browser 2. Gmail 3. Google Voice 4. Gallery 5. ShootMe.
I spend 99% of my time on those 5 apps. I certainly do not waste time on games. Games are for kids. People need to grow up.
All the Dev’s need to do to solve this is add a good old disclaimer like most other services. “We cannot guarantee the product or service will be available after “x” amount of days. If you don’t like this, too bad”
@Tim242
If your idea of fair use is the developer must support providing it until the end of time, and that anything less is unacceptable, I can respect that position even though I don’t agree with it.
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But you clearly know how to back up apps as you proudly proclaim in your first post here. What’s to stop you from backing up apps that you purchase?
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And if you have some sort of philosophical disagreement with developers or the app market not providing the app to you until the time of your choosing, how does that justify you pirating the few that you need? You have the option of not using them if you find the terms of the app/market disagreeable. Since you use this as a justification for piracy, you clearly knew about this policy beforehand.
The mental contortions of pirates are hilarious.
Let’s see, stealing software isn’t really stealing because it’s not a physical resource and can be infinitely copied. Now ok … physical resources, let’s see. I buy a shirt from A&F, and it wears out, and I just throw it away because shirts wear out and I got some use out of it. But oh those non physical goods they had damn well better stick around forever because they don’t wear out. But it’s still not stealing to steal them because they are non physical goods.
LOL.
1) Get adb
2) Pull your data/app folder
3) ??????
4) Profit!!!
Hate to tell ya, but the blame lay with your carrier & phone manufacturer. It is they, not Google, which have f*cked up your market choices. If you’re using the stock unmodified Android OS the only limitations on your Market downloads are OS version compatibility-based.
I completely agree with Quentyn on this topic.
Don’t forget guys: changing a ROM, sending your phone in for repair, a warranty exchange – there are lots of possibilities for loosing your apps.
Reading through the comments here was very interesting, adding several scenarios which he didn’t mention.
I think it’s a serious issue if Google forces devs to re-upload an app as a completely new version. After That’s a pain for devs and customers as well.
As Schwiz reports above, devs are lost when it comes to legal issues. And their customers as well.
The new refund period is really ridiculous: I bought several apps, the download got stuck (as often!) and after it finished my refund period was over.
Google Market is vital for the success of the Android platform – and there’s still a lot to do for Google
I Do not agree with this article either. It would be nice if there was some sort of way to notify a user if the app was being pulled or going under but even when u purchase the app it is in the terms and conditions of the developer of the app that no refunds. Its a risk you take. It sucks when an app can no longer be used or the developer had to pull or google had to shut down, but i do not believe google is to blame for this.