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When a mass shooting that seems to be motivated by racial hate happens, you can expect it to make ripples throughout nearly all the lands. That’s what’s happened in the recent mass shooting in South Carolina, where a white male (who apparently identifies as a white supremacist) killed 9 and injured more at a historically black church.
Retailers everywhere rushed to remove merchandise that showed the Confederate flag from their stores. In case you don’t know, the Confederate flag was originally created as a symbol of pride for the Confederacy during the Civil War, but has since become a symbol of hatred for those who preferred the status quo of those dark times.
But it doesn’t stop at retailers alone. Google and Apple are seemingly following suit for digital goods, with the companies purging apps and games from their respective app stores which depict the confederate flag (such as HexWar Games’ title, which uses the flag for historical accuracy).
On Apple’s part, they say their current policy will be to remove apps and games which use the flag in obscene and offensive ways, and will reinstate apps and games which use it for educational purposes only. We imagine Google’s policy lies along similar lines, though we have not yet heard from the company regarding their official stance.
This touchy subject isn’t bound to end here. The quick move to oust these apps has many folks crying out and wondering why goods featuring other offensive symbols, such as the Swastika, haven’t been met with a similar response.
The Swastika has a similar history in that it was originally used as a symbol of good (or, at least, good-willed) ideals, but was later perverted by Hitler and Nazi Germany and is particularly offensive to Jewish people (or anyone who simply detested Nazism). The difference here seems to be that there haven’t been many known hate crimes against the party which that symbol primarily offends in recent times.
Of course, the one big realization in all of this is that we don’t even know if this was a hate crime yet. It looks bad and it happened in a southern state that played a big part in American slavery, sure, but there’s no official justification for calling this a hate crime until the Department of Justice rules it as such (even though police have concluded that the attack was racially motivated).
The early reaction from retailers and technology companies is likely more about them trying to win positive PR, or at the least trying to prevent any potential negative variants.
And that’s all it is. The apps being wrongfully removed are likely to be back at some point, and we’re probably better off for all the others to simply be forgotten.
[via Engadget]
So the battle flag of Northern Virginia is big bad and scary. Hmm, a good white-washing of history should fix that (sarc).
Even if you’re being sarcastic that’s so far off the mark.
He’s pretty right on. If you’re so scared you have to censor a historical flag out of historical war games, that’s pretty much the definition of hysteria.
___
No, sadly liberal numb nuts believe that banning things will change hearts. Swastikas make people freak out but to many American Indian tribes, it’s a symbol of life and peace. Unfortunately, they can’t celebrate it because morons banning symbols don’t understand the difference between the symbol and the people who use it. It appears that you would be in that category.
Na, I don’t have any illusions that simply banning things would change hearts. I do know that symbols like the swastika are tainted FOREVER. You’ll never remove the Nazi stink from it. It’s just impossible so unfortunately it’s dead (as a positive symbol) to the majority of planet Earth’s population. This flag in question is right there in the same boat. Tainted and ruined forever. Neither flag have any chance of rehabilitation so they may as well just remain in museums from now on and use them as lessons to teach people how not to be.
The DOJ is likely going for hate crime charges. Looking at his manifesto and the rest of the evidence available for the public to it’s very difficult to see how he wouldn’t be facing hate crime charges.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/campaign-to-remove-confederate-symbols-from-public-lands-builds.html
I very much agree with you that many retailers are quickly trying to avoid bad and or score some positive PR and Apple’s move here in particular was well intentioned but a bit off the mark. History references shouldn’t be censored. Now if we’re talking about games that just want to promote the merits of the Confederacy then no, I’ll support removing those types of games.
When these Confederate flag supporters claim that it only represents “southern pride” they’re either lying or being willfully ignorant. They also enjoy reminding people that men like Washington and Jefferson owned slaves but they pretend to forget that they didn’t organize an insurrection against their government.
You’re pretty spot on with this Quentyn, thanks for giving your thoughts on this.
Did you really just say Washington and Jefferson didn’t organize an insurrection against their government?
The US government. America.
What ???? I hope your trolling
Flag it. Just flag this bigot or troll or whatever. Please everyone flag it.
I know I’m going to get some heat for this, but, so is life… If that’s the case, then we really need to get rid of all symbols of hatred and oppression of all things. That means no more Nazi Zombies and Wolfenstein, no more mockery of Asian’s in game apps, etc… Frankly, as an African-American I find the racism associated with the Confederate flag to be deplorable. As an American, I find everything bit of divisiveness and general ignorance that flag stands for even worse. However, we need to remember that it’s the people that need to change, not their feelings that they attach to a symbol. A flag is just a flag. It means nothing to anyone until you make it. To me, whether or not the Confederate flag was flown high that day or ever, I have a feeling that people would have still been shot. Not because of a flag, but because of ignorant racism.
It’s not enough to outlive these bigots because they’re passing down their hate onto their children. Such a tough battle but a worthy fight nonetheless. Removing the flag from public buildings is positive step, however small it may seem. Renaming roads and schools is also another positive step. How these people find pride in men who revolted against their nation, I’ll never understand.
Then we should stop celebrating the American Revolution and the founding fathers of America, all revolted against their country (they were all subjects under the British Crown), the difference is they won the war. The Confederate battle flag does not stand for racism, it stood for freedom from oppression and over taxation.
I do think Google needs to review the apps using it for racist purposes and expunge them but not everything simply because it has the flag in it.
Did you create an account just to chime in? You’re free to believe what you think is right and we’ll all continue to disagree with how you’re wrong about what that flag symbolizes.
I’ve actually had an account here for almost 5 years now, how about you?
Enlighten us with your superior knowledge about my region and my ancestors because I clearly can’t know things about my own history. The facts about why the southern states legally and peacefully seceded are all throughout libraries and documents from the government, but go ahead and keep believing we are all racist hate mongers that just want slavery back. By the way my Irish ancestors came to America as slaves, I find the US flag offensive.
I’m from Texas and I’ve seen how that flag is embraced as a symbol for hate by bigots. I’m rather proud that one of our most important Texans, Sam Houston, was removed from government for refusing to pledge allegiance to the Confederacy and most people in the Hill Country where I’m from rejected and opposed the Confederacy.
Embrace that flag all you want. The rest of the nation here will continue to oppose views from people like you.
He’s not saying he approves of racist people who take pride in the flag. He’s saying that it’s not so simple as “everyone who doesn’t abhor the flag is a racist and scum because a lot of racist people like the flag.”
Believing that secession by the Southern States and the Civil War was *only* about slavery is an oversimplification and a blanket statement on the whole South (not just the people who support/ed slavery and/or racism into today.
Of course, nobody sensible would suggested it was ONLY about slavery but it was a key factor. Regardless, support for displaying the flag on state buildings should be opposed outright.
Yes, of course a reasonable person like you would agree (not sarcasm).
Unfortunately the gravity of and abhorrence people have for slavery often makes them blind to other concerns the Southern States had that were understandable that contributed significantly to the motivations being seceding.
Whatever their complaints where (south) they were invalidated the moment they wanted to keep slavery. The right side won. America.
Several rotten apples do spoil the bunch. Even if there was a sizable amount of people that just wanted self-determination those that thought that slavery and war was the way to go ended up getting exactly what they wanted… right up until they lost.
I celebrate their defeat whenever I see that flag. So happy to see the dominoes are finally falling on this flag being displayed in state buildings. They’ll always be on the wrong side of history.
But its not that simple. The North winning also gave us centralized governmental power, the precedent of martial law, and large industrial corporations and the view people are just economic units. I don’t see why its taboo to argue that.
You’re too excited.
I’m just debating things. Its fun. Can your intellect not take it?
No, you’re stoking up flames and communicating your bigotry.
How? give an example. And quit judging me, I’m sick of it. You sure are stuck up to think yourself so superior.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN05jVNBs64
http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation
Really, it was the north that voted, twice, to return all blacks to the south. Ever hear of Dredd Scott? No? Instead of trying to white wash history, read. You are way off with your groupthink.
Who’s advocating for “whitewashing” history. Certainly I’m not. Easy accusation to toss just like lableing anyone with any dissenting opinion of yours another others like you a “libtard” or any various of the word “liberal”.
I agree. It shouldn’t be on state or federal buildings. But how in the heck did we get from there to censoring video games?
The Confederate states did not revolt over “freedom from oppression” and “over taxation”. They revolted because the rest of the nation wanted to end slavery, and they didn’t. Period.
Everyone thinks slavery was the main reason for the secession and yes, it was probably a significant part of their motivation (although I would suggest that it’s difficult to say how many relatively high-ranking political figures from the South truly wanted to have slavery continue or if a significant portion of those with political power simply felt that they wanted self-determination on other agendas that were actually legitimate and fair that they wanted to be furthered).
However, the Southern states had a much smaller population and were being overruled by the Northern states in Congress etc. on many matters. This happened because the Northern states with their larger populations had more of their citizens in Congress etc. and the Southern states found their voices and wishes drowned by the majority. Obviously some of the Southern States supported some terrible things (like continuing slavery) but they were basically being overruled politically by a majority that didn’t really care what they wanted to suggest for motions, issues etc., even when they were bringing up issues that were justifiable and fair.
The fact that they wanted to continue practising slavery doesn’t change the fact that they themselves were subject to the whims of a majority that opposed/overruled their concerns about many things because they were a political minority.
Don’t forge the Southern states were paying all the taxes and tariffs to support the federal government.
That’s completely false. Tariffs on cotton were lowered repeatedly in the decades leading up to the Civil War. Cotton tariffs were raised *after* Southern congressman resigned their seats and began the process of suceding. The federal income tax was created to finance the war, if the South didn’t rebel, it wouldn’t have even existed back then.
The Senate gives every state 2 senators, and guarantees a representative. If anything small states are overrepresented in congress.
* the constitution
The Constitution handles the balancing of small population states versus high population states by giving all states 2 senators while basing the house seats on population. That way neither small or high population states have too much influence. I expect leaders in the South understood that. If the true reason for the Confederacy was small states feeling under-represented, why didn’t small states in the North join them? I’ll answer my own question… because it was about slavery, any other reasons given were ancillary.
Fighting to maintain slavery in your region because its your source of power is still fighting to maintain slavery in your region.
You need to do some research. The South was paying almost all the taxes to fund the federal government at that time. That is why the North abandoned their forts but for Fort Sumter, it was the custom house for the south Atlantic seaboard. Follow the money, always follow the money. If you think 600,000 fought and died just to “free the Negro”, you’re very gullible. The 90% of Southerners who didn’t own slaves fought because they had to, their homes were being invaded! Just like I would fight to day if we were invaded, even though I think abortion is evil and I dont’ approve of Obama. Countries can’t just go around invading each other every time they disagree with what another country’s elites are doing. That said, it all ended up for the best. I like being in the US. And its interesting Southerners seem to be very patriotic, and also go into the military at high rates. So, they don’t seem treasonous to me.
That’s a nice bit of revisionist history you have there.
Is not revisionist. It’s fact. However, white washing by idiots has sadly hidden the facts. It appears you are part of the groupthink and can’t read history.
Patently FALSE.
freedom of oppression for whom?
The confederacy fought to protect the institution of slavery (which it clearly stated multiple times) in the name of freedom…
You don’t see the irony in that statement?
More jibberish from an uninformed liberal
Im actually giving you information. You have yet to contribute to any conversation. Do you know what uninformed means?
You are selling liberal propaganda and I am not buying.
They didn’t revolt against the nation, they tried to leave it. Dang, get it right. Our Founding Fathers were slaveholders who seceded from England. They won, the South lost, that is the only difference. Slavery was on its way out either way with the advent of industrialization, it didn’t need a war that killed 600,000 and destroyed the South to get there. Nevermind, its fun to debate historical points, but it doesnt’ get us anywhere.
I dont like this argument at all. The South decided to fight too. They didnt have to engage in war. Also you are saying the lives of soldiers that voluntarily entered a war with the purpose of protecting their right to rape, torture, murder, and sell human beings… are more important than the innocent american human beings that were being raped, tortured, murdered and sold?
They we should have just waited until slavery was no longer economically efficient and it would have ended on its own?
Exactly. The symbols aren’t the problem. It’s the terrible attitudes of many people who take pride in those symbols who believe in opposing those groups they deem opponents to their beliefs/agendas.
Unfortunately the symbols are tainted now and nothing can really get rid of that taint. Publicly displaying such divisive symbols or approving of them in any way is probably something to be avoided.
Whatever alternative things that flag may symbolize to those who take pride it, it’s tainted forever. They’ll NEVER remove the stink of hate and bigotry associated with the flag, so keep it in museums and private homes. Not on display in government buildings.
Everyone probably should admit that even though the flag probably wasn’t all about slavery/racism in the beginning it’s what it’s become. Just like the Swastika never had anything to do with Nazism/genocide before the Nazi party but it’s what it’s become in people’s minds.
When a symbol becomes that abhorrent it is high time for it to fade into the mists of history so everyone can move forward and avoid the mistakes that were made before.
I appreciate your sensibility. Museums. That’s where the flag belongs.
As I appreciate your reasonable discussion of this. Time changes all things. People, their symbols and their beliefs must change for the better with them to make progress.
We’ll get there, one day. It’s a good fight. Hate will lose, love will win.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmRAxJIa0u8
Point taken. The problem is “the offended” are not going to stop at the Confederate flag. But it definitely shoudln’t be on government building. That is for Old Glory.
I agree and disagree with that to an extent. Yes, you’re 100% right that the flag probably wasn’t about slavery/racism at it’s creation. But, in fairness. Nothing is. 239 years ago when the Decoration was Independence was framed and written, I’m fairly certain that if cell phones were even a distant thought and globalism was an actual thing, it would have read a lot differently. To deny a group of people a symbol of their heritage simply because an unenlightened bunch chose to sully it, isn’t necessarily the answer. I would like to hope that the Confederate Flag still stands for something important in the history of the south to some people that’s deeper than slavery. It should represent the Souths fight sectionalism for the cotton trade, states rights, their desire for relevance in national electoral process, and the push for territory through expansion.
Now, yeah, it means a lot more. But that, to me anyway, is more indicative of people remembering the worst of an otherwise mundane situation. (You never pay attention the the cars driving at 60mph, but you damn well see the sunburst yellow Mustang doing 100) Slavery, racism, the “good ‘ol boys” etc… That’s been pervasive and building since the civil war and it’s passed down to this day. I mean CHRIST! They still teach the Civil War as the War of Northern Aggression!
My point is, you’re not wrong. At this point, it just makes sense to get rid of the support and symbols of ignorance, but there’s a much larger problem. It’s the people. We can take down a flag, we can patch a video game, but there’ll always be the bigoted gun nut, there’ll always be a modder. What really sucks is, the people did didn’t see it as a symbol of something, that didn’t do anything wrong, get to miss out.
Lastly, I am so sorry for interjecting any point of view on this blog/website that has nothing to do with Android phones. It was never my intent to encourage a debate on anything. That’s what Gothamist is for. I never meant to offend, and I certainly never meant to enrage. So I’m burying my apology here in this comment, and that’s the last thing I’m saying in this post.
“As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. … As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the nowinfamous banner of the Yankee vandals.”
—William T. Thompson (1863), Daily Morning News
This isn’t government buildings. This is censoring the flag out of Civil War games for goodness sake. Are people that fragile, illogical, and hysterical these days?
The memorial is on capital grounds. So yes: it IS a government building.
And I’m for taking that down. I’m talking about the silliness of censoring videogames.
Actually, it’s on a memorial. It’s NOT on a government building. These are if fervent things. Sadly, you can’t see past your hatred to notice reality.
Yes, I’m clearly full of hate to consider a structure on capital grounds a government building….
You’re clearly all three. Bravo.
Maybe if you could actually address a point, instead of sit there smug in your emotional mediocrity that would be great. We are talking about censoring flags out of historical wargames? That is ridiculous.
That’s not what I’m disagreeing or criticize you about. It’s your blatant bigoted views.
Whatever. How am I bigoted? Is it just because you disagree with me on some things? I actually agree with you on some things, does that make you bigoted too? Do you even understand debate, logic, and reason, or is it all just emotional kneejerk assertions that make you feel morally superior somehow?
Ok.
Sadly, they are. As you can see, many here already have their panties in a bunch in a race to white wash history and ignore facts.
You don’t get it. Once you allow people to put whatever value they want to on a symbol, and then use that to control other people’s behavior, you have a problem. That diminishes freedom. I personally couldn’t care less about the Confederate flag, but its the hypocrisy that irritates me, as well as the illlogic. Why allow people to burn or stomp on the American Flag? Why allow illegals to fly the Mexican flag? We either have free speech or we don’t.
Easy there, Hannity.
It’s like he’s typing fox news taking points.
It’s like you’re typing Saul Alinsky’s rules for radicals. No, really. Reading might get you out of your groupthink.
And don’t forget it was Old Glory flying over the slave ships, and Northern interests that made the money off the slave trade. And when are we going after all the illegals that fly the Mexican flag? But you have to start somewhere. The Confederate battle flag should not be on government buildings, but why can’t it be in a civil war videogame? People are going nuts.
If you are going to make an article about this, at least have all the facts. Saying things like “we don’t know if this was a hate crime” is completely insensitive when the killer himself stated he was there to kill black people. That is based on witness accounts and the local police department. So, this “we don’t know” rhetoric needs to stop.
To be fair I don’t believe he meant to be insensitive but to be factual. The DOJ has yet to file hate crime charges but it is likely. He was just attempting to be objective. I understand what you’re saying. This monster will get his in the end.
Yes, I understand that. I take issue with “we don’t know.” There is a lot of talk going on with people denying that this was a hate crime. Some people would even rather say it was a faith based attack. It is very disheartening that people are trying their hardest to not see this as what it is.
Oh my god, that faith-based attack angle is just ridiculous and callous. Of course the likes of Fox News started with this “narrative” right away in the aftermath. It’s amazing how they’re so immune to irony.
I know exactly how you feel. He could of been objective and just said it’s under investigation.
This was exactly my goal. Wanted to remain as objective as possible.
Quentyn,
How silly. Objective reality makes no matter in today’s society. Only emotional outbursts and perceived offense.
You need to be admitted to a re-education camp stat.
I agree with roaduardo here, he hasn’t been convicted of hate crimes yet. I hope he is though.
I wonder, what kind of murder isn’t motivated by hate?
Robberies. Some also do it just for fun.
All murder is hate. I am uncomfortable with assigning levels of crime according to race and motivation – except for premeditation. Anyone who attacks anyone is a criminal who should find every person’s hand against them to deliver them to the state for judgement.
Well there goes my chances for a confederate flag otter case for my Thunderbolt!
You’re better off without one.
Can’t see the sarcasm? Think he really still has a Thunderbolt?
“Southern” isn’t an ethnicity, nor is anyone being “cleansed”.
Another hallmark of cultural Marxism is how easily lying comes to cultural Marxists.
I’ve been called a lot of things in my life, but “cultural marxist” is a new one.
What exactly in my short comment was a lie? Ethnic cleansing is the act of mass-murdering people to wipe out their ethnicity. Southerners are NOT an ethnic group, nor are they being mass-murdered. On the other hand, someone just committed a mass-murder of blacks in the name of the Confederacy.
Well, to be fair, some of them DO need a bath.
The problem here that I see is a violation of the freedom of speech and that was designed for speech not liked as well as thoughtful and considerate speech. You can always make up your own mind as to intention and meaning and then choose to listen or not. But just because of a perceived intention I don’t think we’re should have these severe knee jerk reactions when some unpreventable idiot does something stupid and claims it was a symbol instead of his/her choices
A violation of freedom of speech? Is the government prosecuting developers for putting the Confederate flag in apps?
No, but its still asinine, illogical and empowered by hysteria, not reason.
I can make an app about eating babies … doesn’t mean its mass hysteria if no one lets me publish it.
C’mon. Censoring flags out of historical videogames, really? That’s just like eating babies..not
Google can remove anything from their store all they’d like. Google is not the United States federal government.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Freedom of Speech only protects you from being prosecuted for saying something against the government. You can say or do what you choose, but there may be consequences. Stores removing items has nothing to do with free speech.
Don’t know if it was a Hate crime? The guy said he did it because black men keep stealing and raping their women. His cousin said a black guy stole his girlfriend. You bugging.
You are, indeed, saying what the news says that a survivor of the attack says that he said….Notice how far down the line that is. Not saying it’s not true, because it probably is, but until it’s officially ruled as such by the investigators, journalists don’t get to mouth off. Phandroid did what was right and proper here…the closest they could truthfully do was say that it was under investigation of being a hate crime, or that it was a suspected hate crime.
He published a manifesto on a racist website. A racist manifesto.
That’s what I mean. People are trying so hard man. Just to deny it is what It is.
“It looks bad and it happened in a southern state that played a big part in American slavery, sure, but there’s no official justification for calling this a hate crime until the Department of Justice rules it as such (even though police have concluded that the attack was racially motivated)” That’s journalism.
He’s a POS. I’m just waiting for the media and police to start addressing the spike in black on white violent crime.
They did- when they quoted his racist manifesto. He was obsessed with black-on-white violent crime too.
Good. We have real problems in this country we need to address. Not hide behind taboos. This is how people like this fester, in the shadows.
He even has his own racist site, the last Rhodesian.
Nah, miss me with that. He has relatives saying it too. And tbh people always try and dismiss shit when it’s obvious.
They’re not denying it…they’re doing what they should as journalists; saying what they should as journalists.
I don’t like the wording, it looks dismissive. That’s the end of that though.
They could of said what you said but didn’t. And that’s something that could of been left out.
He said pretty much exactly that “It looks bad and it happened in a southern state that played a big part in American slavery, sure, but there’s no official justification for calling this a hate crime until the Department of Justice rules it as such (even though police have concluded that the attack was racially motivated)”
its a hate crime. But murder is pretty much always a hate crime. I don’t like to assign levels of crime by race or motivation, that seems murky. Murder is already the worst crime there is. And to sit there for a hour, enjoying communion with these saints on earth, then murder them. Horrid doesn’t begin to cover it. This kid is just plain evil.
Not everyone kills someone because of the color of their skin. That’s one of the reasons why we prosecute hate crimes differently.
Sure, I’m not saying it ISN’T a hate crime, or that he ISN’T guilty. I’m saying that journalists don’t get to call something a hate crime before that’s been the official ruling, and they don’t get to call someone more than a “suspect” until he’s been fairly tried and convicted. Journalistic ethics 101
*could’ve. It’s hard to agree with someone whom has such bad grammar.
If only you grammar trolls knew how much I didn’t care about grammar or how you feel about it lol.
Look, I’m not a grammar troll. I’m not one to call out simple mistakes. But you took could have and changed it to could of. C’mon.
And you too the time to correct someone who doesn’t care. Pretty sure you did it for the sake of being petty. How many people in the heat of the moment would correct themselves when someone went out of their way to correct them? Think about that.
of -> have
We’re all waiting for you to attach the much more prevalent black on white violent crimes with as much passion.
Cato… Please kindly eat a fat one. Can’t believe you just tried that lol. Move along troll. White on black crime, much more prevalent Lmao.
Nice language, how old are you? Look it up. The FBI crime stats are open to all. But you obviously value emotion over reason. we should debate all the facts, not just “approved” ones.
They also found manifestos of him plotting it. Keep this android related.
He uses an android phone, we must ban everything Android related now.
Away with you, troll. You seem to be immune from irony.
Apparently you don’t understand sarcasm
Bit rough placing that in this context, no?
I get that for some people, the Confederate flag is a symbol. I’m from Texas, so I’ve seen the people who are seriously racist. But that flag also important history, and it’s not going away.
History of racism and slavery. Why aren’t people displaying the original American flag? That’s even more historic.
It’s a sad day for America when we are erasing and censoring our history.
Nobody in their right state of mind would suggest that. Nobody. Removing these flags from governments buildings does NOT “erase” or “censor” history. They belong in museums. Museums are still around and so are history books and the INTERNET (where nothing ever dies).
Then people start protesting museums because of offensive and racist propaganda inside. Libraries too.
That’s not a sensible outlook.
Nobody sensible is advocating for it to “go away” completely, merely to remove it from government buildings. I’m from Texas as well and I’m proud of the majority of citizens in my area (Hill Country) who opposed the Confederacy and also Sam Houston who was removed from government for refusing to pledge allegiance to the Confederacy.
The confederacy mounted an inserection against our government and they lost. They lost, the lost, they lost. Their flag belongs in a museum not on government buildings. Museums. Museums.
Wow, What the heck does the confederate battle flag (not the national flag), have to do with the shooting in Charleston? You almost get the feeling some people are gleeful the atrocity occurred so they can use it for political purpose. Of course, in a country that cherished logic, reason, and individual freedom, such linking couldn’t occur. We are regressing towards primitive tribalism (group identity politics), not progressing.
I’m middle-aged and race relations have never been this bad in my lifetime, not even close. The irony is that its black on white crime that is getting out of control in some areas, including mob attacks. I live in a mixed race area and every week brings news of another black on white attack. But the media is silent. And if your kid gets attacked, the police treat you like you’re the criminal for wanting to press charges. Its crazy.
The reason the Confederate flag is being discussed is that the perpetrator Dylann Roof was shown in pictures on his own website to be a neo Confederate. He has pictures of him waving that flag on his site called the last Rhodesian, referencing the racist former state of Rhodesia. He said he wanted to start a race was and given his fondness of displaying the Confederate flag while making those statements it’s understandable that the Confederate flag and what it represents should at least be discussed. Another reason we’re discussing the flag is that everyone in the mainstream media is just too scared to talk about the real issue, gun control. Roof bought his firearm himself, if there were a proper background check done on him this tragedy could’ve been prevented. Unfortunately sensible gun regulation is a lost battle in America.
There was also the issue of the Confederate flag at the South Carolina capital building being the only one that wasn’t at half-mast after the shootings. A nice slap in the face for the victims and their families, brought to you by the supporters of the flag.
Oh absolutely I thought that was a given though and was trying to talk about another aspect to the story. It’s amazing what disgusting hatred some people are capable of.
It wasn’t an issue until last week, plus there’s no pully on that flag pole, it could not be flown at half mast.
People have been pushing for the Confederate flag to be removed for many years. It was removed from most Southern state capitals, but South Carolina has stuck with it. Having it at full-mast after last week’s tragedy, combined with the shooter’s fondness for it brought the issue back into focus.
As for the lack of a pully, I heard about that. Why did the Confederacy-lovers do it that way? Were they just too stupid to realize that at some point they’d need it at half-mast? Or was it by design, to insult victims of every tragedy that occurs? Either way, it’s despicable.
Its just a pole, the flag didn’t come down. I lived in Columbia SC for 12 years so I don’t need to be told what the locals think of it. The Charleston shooter was fond of many other things but I don’t see everyone asking everything associated with him to be banned.
IMHO it was because Charleston wouldn’t riot and loot when Al Sharpton came to town and tried to rile everyone up. They asked him to leave. Apparently he went to Columbia to stir up the media about the flag there..the media takes it from there and makes it a national debate. There was only about 100 protesting it on site.
The only people who really cared to take down the Confederate flag we’re the race hustlers that came from Washington.
I’ve thought often in the past week and a half that these people have shown more genuine Christian behavior in the face of tragedy than anyone else I’ve heard about recently. This wasn’t just a Sunday morning churchgoer attitude for them…their reaction to the atrocity is a constant testimony of a deep and transcendent love in their lives, one that has changed them from the inside out.
“but there’s no official justification for calling this a hate
crime until the Department of Justice rules it as such (even though
police have concluded that the attack was racially motivated).”
So by this logic he hasn’t murdered anyone yet either, because a court hasn’t ruled on it yet?
At the MOST we should only wait for the charge, and lets be realistic: if the cops say its racially motivated then the only reason he’s not been brought with those charges yet is because (gasp): South Carolina doesn’t recognize hate crimes yet, which is sadly telling in another light. Yes, that’s right: In SC there’s no such thing as a hate crime which is the ONLY reason people are waiting for the DOJ to press charges.
TLDR: its a hate crime.
It’s more than a hate crime it was a terrorist attack.
Actually, your second paragraph 100% correct. Journalists are required to call him a “suspect” until his guilt has been determined by the courts. Even though he’s admitted to it.
Follow the logic here…some people are demented enough that they’ll claim guilt for something they don’t do simply for the notoriety. Generally, this is more applicable to terrorist groups than to lone killings, but that fact still stands. By not simply stopping everything because they are fairly sure they have the right guy in custody, they ensure the following: 1-Less total condemnation in the press, making it easier to find the impartial jurors the law demands, and 2-More likely that the TRULY guilty find justice, and not getting away with it because someone else took credit for their crime.
Quentyn, please shut this down. This discussion has devolved into something terrible. The trolls have arrived.
Don’t get your panties in a bunch. Geez.
Spoken like a true troll. You’re too excited around here. You’re posting like it’s your job. You should calm down, son.
You’re the one who just wants to shut down debate. I’m fine. I actually agree with you on a lot. I just like to debate. That should be okay in a free society.
There’s no sensible reason to debate someone like you.
Yeah and your answer is to shut him down. Just like the libtards. YOU don’t like something so it MUST be taken away from everyone else. FO
Yeah, you’re right. I don’t like bigots. Spot on.
I know. That’s what you liberal scum do. You don’t like something that doesn’t fit your socialist utopia so you immediately label anyone against you a bigot. You have no problem taking someone else’s rights away to satisfy you own sick selfish need to control.
Hate is always going to be called out for what it is. You’re on the wrong side of history. You probably are also lamenting today’s SCOTUS ruling finally legalizing marriage equality. It’s a great day in America.
http://i.imgur.com/7CXrcJ3.gif
Marriage equality?? LMAO. The liberal solution to what you refer to as equality is exactly the opposite. Every time liberals make something equal, they restrict the rights of others. Your party is exactly against liberty but you’re too stupid to see it because all you care about are your own selfish needs.
Yup. Bask in its glory. We’ve finally done it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYHuF9tIbpQ
http://i.imgur.com/7QXpSA7.gif
I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you’ve said, but seriously lol @ you going to Gawker trying to recruit people to back you up because you felt ganged up on here.
And? Why not gather sane voices and people who care about equality and who denounce bigotry? I didn’t feel “ganged up” but rather felt that others should see the backwards views being voiced here. You must help identify the hate.
na
Who exactly are liberals restricting from getting married? Of yeah, nobody.
More name calling from Michael… nice.
People, who you don’t know, getting married to other people you don’t know has absolutely nothing to do with you or your rights.
I think your argument is invalidated when you use the term “libtards”.
Not any more. These days of you don’t agree with pop culture you need to be silenced and labeled a racist or homophobe.
Spoken like a true communist.
You’re touched in the head.
Then what do you call it when YOU demand a conversation be halted because YOU don’t like it or agree with it?
Here’s the thing, I never called for a conversation. And if I did and it devolves into hate-filled rhetoric from a bigot then I’m in favor of shutting that down. Once you get to that state there’s no sensible reason to continue.
Then go to another website instead of trying to control this one. Like go to another bakery bro
Bless
Not wanting to see the discussion turning ugly has absolutely nothing to do with communism. OTOH, calling people names because you don’t like their comment absolutely does have to do with the discussion turning ugly.
I think you mean fascist
I fly my Confederate flag proudly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
smh
That flag is a part of American history and heritage and should be displayed with pride and conviction.
the nazi swastika was part of german history and heritage… but it has no place in being hung with pride. History belongs in a museum.
Typical labelling my flag has nothing to do any of what u said. Learn the real history behind the flag before bashing it.
Dude, just stop it.
I don’t trust these memes as an accurate representation of history, I’ll go by on the books I read about it.
I understand ur apprehensions
“As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.[4]… Such a flag…would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN’S FLAG.[5]… As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals.[6]”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tappan_Thompson
A flag that was created to represent an organization fighting to protect the institution of slavery and maintaining white supremacy? I don’t think an analogy that illustrates that just because something is “history and heritage” doesn’t mean it can’t be bad taste. By that logic, nothing in this world is ever disrespectful (like the holocaust) because it’s apart of history…
Unless you have some other historical facts that conflict that of the original letters of secession by confederate states? I would love to be enlightened.
More jibberish from an uninformed liberal
You mean the fact that the flag now associated with the Confederate South was only one of many flags during the war? Doesn’t really matter, chief. It’s what has become associated, by the South itself, with that time period.
If you’re going to be obnoxious, don’t be surprised when other people tell you to knock it the heck off.
It is true that people who fought against the Union in the Civil War had much pride for their cause… They were fighting for their rights to own slaves and for their rights to continue the slave trade/labor/etc. The creator of the confederate flag is William Porcher Miles, he was a pro-slavery extremist who called slavery a “Divine institution”. Anyone in this country who has the same pride has the freedom of speech to fly their confederate flag, the same way all the others who fought to continue slavery did. This is the history of the Confederate flag. the United States allows free speech to anyone and everyone as long as it does not harm others. the flag in of itself doesn’t harm anyone. afterall, it’s just a symbol of the historic heritage of people who fought in the civil war, the confederate soldiers fighting for their cause to continue slavery.
“the one big realization in all of this is that we don’t even know if this was a hate crime yet. It looks bad and it happened in a southern state that played a big part in American slavery, sure, but there’s no official justification for calling this a hate crime until the Department of Justice rules it as such (even though police have concluded that the attack was racially motivated)”
Quentyn… Really dude? Why even write this paragraph if you’re gonna finish it with the sentence in the parenthesis? Have you been actually following this story or have you been coding in a dark room? SMH
As a journalist, he is required to state this as only a possibility until ruled on officially. Similarly, even though the guy has admitted to the crime, journalists are also required to label him a “suspect” until a court has determined his guilt. Kudos to him for following the rules of journalism.
I recognize and understand the need for journalistic integrity and consistency. However, when dealing in written media where attention to nuance is essential, he gave the perception (at least to me) of a lack of empathy. If it were me, I would have chosen my words differently. If he had said; “The Justice Department is continuing an on-going investigation regarding the tragic shooting in SC. They are awaiting more evidence before determining to categorize the incident as a hate crime”. Full stop.
I respect ur point though
The flag does represent hate and racism but it also represents the history of the south. Imo. Public spaces outside of museums shouldn’t display it but private citizens should have the right to do so if they wish. In this case Google and apple being private citizens under the law have the right to remove it if they find it offensive.
Agreed, regardless of where you stand on this issue, context matters. If you’re playing a Civil War game, you would expect the Confederates to be represented by the battle flag. For Apple and Google to actually pull down apps in this context is beyond asinine, even if it eventually returns.
They are tying the confederate flag to this because it’s one more piece of old America that they want to tear down. You can ask a thousand people what is the first thing that comes to mind when they see that flag. I highly doubt slavery will rank high. Ask those same thousand people to look at someone with a white sheet thrown over them and you’ll probably get higher hits yet no one is calling for destructions of linen. There is so much fuel and hatred over this association that people don’t see the ones who are trying to spread their agendas are force feeding us these associations. I asked my girlfriend what she thought when she saw that flag waving next to a American flag she said dukes of hazards. I don’t know why I never saw the show lol. My friend says cannon balls and another said “some old war”. Powers that be want to tear down anything that reminds us of what America used to be like by tying relics to negative aspects of an era and not the entire era in itself.
Right on, maybe we should stop draping white sheets over our beds because they were used on horses.
This is more about erasing American Heritage
Well, if you and your girlfriend think the flag represents the Dukes of Hazzard, then that settles it.??!!
As for the article stating, “In case you don’t know, the Confederate flag was originally created as a symbol of pride for the Confederacy during the Civil War…”
Seriously, stick to phone rumors. Otherwise, if you’re going to write about a serious subject, do some real research. Than means putting real time into the question.
The history of that flag is that it represented the secession states, generals, officers, and politicians who broke their oath to the United States and chose treason. They broke their oaths to support a system that forced one group of people to labor for free, while another group consumed the fruit of that labor. They broke their oaths in an attempt to ensure that the system of slavery would expand into the new Western territories. They broke their oath and rallied under that flag.
The supporters of that flag paint the picture of gentleman and ladies sipping sweet tea on a porch, and that “Southern” culture of fun and hospitality. That picture never shows the whip marks on the backs of the people who made the tea. The nooses, the shackles, the 3/5ths of a human so the could be valued in relation to livestock. Visit the slave buying balconies in Savannah, GA, plantations in Louisiana, hell, Google “slaves in the South” and click images, then tell me you see “Dukes of Hazzard!” (which except for 5 episodes was shot in California!) That “old war” is with us everyday, and the desire to keep that flag proves it.
Please, leave this as a site where people come to rant about their electronic devices. Meaningful discussion on serious subjects is practically impossible.