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A Yahoo stock-holder invested his time at the annual stock holder meeting to address the company’s CEO (and former Google Executive) Marissa Mayer, with the following words: “I’m Greek and I’m a dirty old man and you look attractive, Marissa.”
I got that awkward sense of onlooker embarrassment when watching, followed by a general disdain for humanity when hearing the crowd collectively laugh. Watch it for yourself:
This is a polarizing topic: it’s all about context and opinions will vary. There will be feminists who watch this with complete disgust. There will be the macho types that tell you to lighten up, take a joke, and grow a pair. The reality is probably somewhere in between, but I think we ought to take a closer look at reality.
Business is more difficult for women than it is for men. Not because men are smarter, or tougher, or better at negotiating, but because the business world treats women differently. And by differently, I mean unfairly.
It was great to see a woman – Mary Barra – become the first female CEO of General Motors this year. Some found it especially wonderful given the male-centric nature of the auto-industry. But for those that didn’t read the fine print: Barra was only offered half of her male predecessors salary.
Let’s not pretend this is a qualifications issue either: “[Barra] has worked at GM for 33 years and has experience with positions in manufacturing, engineering and senior management. She began her GM career a co-op student in the Pontiac Motor Division in 1980 and gradually worked her way up the corporate ladder.
Of course there are two sides to every story, but the story itself is all too common. You can find this story repeating itself throughout the business world every day, in every corner of the country. Less than 5% of Fortune 1000 companies have female CEOs (as of Jan. 2013). President Obama addressed this divide in his 2014 State of the Union, noting just how unfair the male/female wage divide remains on an aggregate level:
Today, women make up about half our workforce. But they still make 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. That is wrong, and in 2014, it’s an embarrassment. A woman deserves equal pay for equal work. She deserves to have a baby without sacrificing her job.
Don’t even get me started on the maternity thing, with CEOs like AOL’s Tim Armstrong using mothers and their “distressed babies” as scapegoats to cut employee benefits.
There is plenty of blame to go around… and bloggers, including myself, aren’t exempt from the scrutiny. At events like CES, female sexuality is used as a prop to sell tech products to a mostly male audience – you may know them as booth babes – and by extension people associate and generalize this participation as an applied gender role- to be the attractive women holding our gadgets.
Nevermind (for the moment) how it may alienate some really smart female tech bloggers. Let’s just suppose these female product representatives are all tastefully dressed. Call it smart marketing if you want: knowing your target audience and using tools at your disposal to attract their attention.
Fine. That boat floats and I’ll jump in. Heck, I admit, I even shamelessly jump into sinking boats at times. But there is no fine line here.
Marissa Mayer is not a “booth babe” and in no alternate reality is this acceptable.
You can blame it away on one crazy dude, who in turn blames it away on his nationality and perversion, but there is more to it. This isn’t an isolated incident. There are business owners, managers, and entrepreneurs across the world who think this very same way. Some are more vocal than others, but it’s the reason for Barra’s salary, Obama’s statements, and Cook’s accusations. It’s the reason men dominate executive positions and the reason women make less than men across the board.
The comment wasn’t funny. To laugh at the comment is even less funny. There are circumstances under which it may have been funny… and you can arrive at those circumstances by pretty much inverting every detail.
That’s only half of the closer look at reality: the other is of the “half full” variety. So I leave you with a quick list of some amazingly successful women in mobile tech who are accomplishing great things, hopefully to serve as a reminder: women aren’t subordinates in tech or equals in tech. Women aren’t superiors in tech either. Women are individuals, so treat each one with the respect they’ve earned.
(Image Credit: Forbes)
For bios and more information on the above women, along with other powerful women in business, check out Forbe’s Top 100 list.
are any of these women married?
It’s a big shame…I still can’t believe people just brush off this behavior
I’m not sure what this piece is doing here. I read Phandroid for news and information related to Android, not for feminist soapboxing – male, female or otherwise.
Regardless of the validity of Rob’s opinion, this article belongs on Jezebel and not on Phandroid. Let’s please keep the coverage and opinions focused on Android and related topics, and the social debates elsewhere.
This is a tech site. It’s a weekend editorial. I think it’s relevant to anyone interested in anything tech related.
There are very few publications where 100% of the articles are liked by 100% of the readers. Of those that do exist, I would guess most are diaries. We write a variety of articles to appeal to a variety if interests… don’t click on the articles that don’t interest you!
Hopefully there are some people who appreciate the piece. I thought it was an important thing to point out.
There are a LOT of women working on android…. Diane hackborne… Sarah price… etc…. it affects everyone who loves tech.
the article definitely has its place here. don’t listen to the narrow-minded.
i have to agree that such an article is out of place here. the conversation that will ensue from this article will have absolutely nothing to do with mobile phone tech.
this type of stuff should be saved for the poliblogs.
Marissa Mayer has a lot to do with Google, mobile tech and now huge impact on Yahoo’s refresh… So, IMO, this article fits fine for a tech site such as Phandroid. I feel it’s very important to pay attention to Women in tech and not to mention the workforce as a whole.
It’s very common here at Phandroid to have fun, opinionated articles over weekends. Most enjoy the read, but negative comments are more common because the users that are happy don’t need to complain.
I hope we do get some valued comments, I for one do find this interesting and would like to hear more.
I’m a Android Developer not blogger. I do let the writers know when an article should not be on Phandroid and want to make it a point that I am just not taking sides.
Dude, seriously!? It’s Google related. How does this not belong here? It’s something that happened at Google.
You don’t like the article? Don’t read it.
You know… You should start your own free blog with only the content you feel like serving up to the public … then again that would only lead to entitled readers complaining about the content you chose to serve them for free… Probably not worth the effort. Probably should just stick to being outraged over the free content you’ve been served
Please don’t trot out that tired 77 cent statistic.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html
That article is written by Christina Sommers, who works for the American Enterprise Institute, a right-wing think tank. Her anti-feminist views are well known. Despite her esteemed educational credentials, she tends to ignore the evidence before her own eyes.
Personally, I was pleased to see this article on Phandroid– indeed, sometimes I feel like the only female reader to many of these tech sites . . .
Thanks, male readers for suggesting that this piece belongs on female-related sites rather than here. We women only make up half the population; are you suggesting that we should stick to female matters seen only in female spaces?
It’s attitudes like these that women are squeezed out of tech industries to begin with. Unfortunate, really.
Except the same analysis has been done by many others, including some feminists as well. That 23 cent gap is pure bunk.
people fixate on the number but whether its 23% or 4% it’s still a problem. also that study doesn’t comment on the fact that many of the highest paid jobs are dominated by men. that is also a problem.
In order for things to be equal does every profession need to have a 50 percent ratio of men to women? maybe that there aren’t as many women in tech because they are interested in it as men are. In my highschool girls in general has higher marks in science and math classes. Despite this fact more guys went on to study engineering and technology. Several of the top women went on to study theater. This wasn’t because they weren’t capable of performing extremely well in the math or sciences, it was because they had different interests and wanted to pursue something else.
Fast forwarding to College I found that in mechanical engineering there was less than 20 percent women compared to Chemical Engineering which had almost 50 percent. Once again this isn’t because of lack of capability or because of someone holding them back, it comes down to individuals and what they’re interested in.
Today I occasionally go to career fairs to recruit for my company. Like many other tech companies we’re actively trying to recruit female candidates. I can tell you for a fact that the starting salary is identical regardless of race or sex.
All of my life I have been taught about the glass ceiling, yet everywhere I’ve been, school or work, there always seems to be a woman in charge. I found one of the more ironic instances to be in college where my professor was talking about the glass ceiling. At the time our college female president was the highest paid college president in the country and was a key member on Obama’s technology board.
The “Old Boys Clubs” are becoming rarer and rarer by the year. Each year more and more of the old bigoted thinkers are retiring. I haven’t ran into any one of my generation who sings self someone being a superior in terms of performance or intelligence based on sex or race. If there are more men in technology statistically should we expect there to be an equal number of male and female CEOs? As the numbers begin to equal out it would make sense to see this to happen, but before wouldn’t that just be insinuating that one sex is statistically more likely to take on a leadership role than another?
Stop with the rational thought cmechf. This is about feelings.
no, of course not. I’m not saying each job needs to be split down the middle or something wrong is happening. I’m saying if 2 people do a job and the woman gets paid less most of the time there is something wrong, and whether people want to deny it or not that is indeed the case in almost every profession. CEO’s are the glaring easy example because ceo salaries are usually more public than other professions. Numbers aside, female ceos get paid much less than their counterparts in the same field. usually less than their predecessors, usually less than their successors. Sometimes there’s a case for it but sometimes they just get lowballed. CEO is the easy example but not the only one. CPA’s also highly favor men on the wage scale, lawyers, hotel management, management of any kind for that matter. This is a problem
“maybe that there aren’t as many women in tech because they are interested in it as men are.”
This is very much true. Just read any research done on Autistic Spectrum Disorder (and Autism) vs. Psichotic Spectrum Disorder (and schizophrenia), and Extreme Male Brain theory (this “Extreme” has nothing to do with sexism). The prevalence of mechanistic thinking is a normal male brain function, whereas mentalistic is word for normal female brain. Males are more interested in tech (toy cars and trains in boyhood), females are more about senses and emotions.
Yep, and this article was written by feminist writer Hanna Rosin of Slate.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html
Thank you! I feel the exact same way. Like the only female reader surrounded by dudes. The “male-only” lingering perception of android, which I would argue isn’t as much an issue for iOS can hurt Google. Women also use smartphones.
Thank you Phandroid for writing this post. Things won’t get better unless people speak up.
I think its more an issue of establishment.
I’m not involved in business at the executive level myself but where I work, employees and employers are excited to see females enter our career field and encourage them to do so (mech. engineering), however due to perceptions from members of both genders its still uncomfortable for them to go for some career paths because (as is currently established) it isn’t currently popular. Many women don’t want to be looked down on for choosing different career field than what others usually choose.
For example, my sister doesn’t to be one of ten girls in a class of 150 engineers in college. She still views that career as a male’s field. It was only established as being a male field by years of (legally instituted and near universal) male domination in the distant past. I believe the effects of this treatment and segregation continue to be felt in the way I described above. Many women feel uncomfortable breaking the mold, and who could blame them. No one wants to be different (in a negative way).
These norms should break down over time but it won’t be quick. It takes independent and influential women to make these changes and they will continue, but it will take time to change our collective attitudes.
This is exactly why we need to have these types of articles. Your sister sounds like a strong women to survive that field… Good for her!
“Surviving that field” is being a bit melodramatic. Are there still some bigoted individuals working in the field who think men are superior to woman? The answer is unfortunately still yes, but those people are few and far between. The vast majority of people only care what about what you are able to bring to the team, and how well you can perform.
I used to work construction. Whenever there was a women on the job, she was given the most cushy job that they had and yet, as union laborers, she received the same rate of pay as me even though I was balls deep in mud doing back breaking labor. It’s certainly not the same as this, but women and men are not equal based on biology and decision making alone. Look at the research that has been done. Men and women think differently. Fact.
your anecdote only points to the fact that that specific woman should have been paid less… it really doesnt speak to whether or not she should get paid less if shes doing the same job as others. clearly she wasnt. Or maybe your anecdote points to the fact that the manager was a sexist and gave the woman a cushy job she didnt deserve and overpaid her. also crappy but also equally irrelevant to equal pay for equal work. In fact your anecdote in this case only supports that sexism and paying people based on their sex is a bad thing (no matter which sex you favor).
Also, the world doesnt pay based on how physically demanding a job is. Janitors make less than office workers. Construction workers make less than the home office workers (except in cases where the construction worker is certified in some specific skill).So maybe what looked like a woman getting preferential treatment was actually a woman who had the credentials and experience to get the cushy job that none of the laborers, man or woman, had the skills for or the inclination to apply for.
Our maybe she wasn’t capable of doing the physically demanding jobs and got placed in the cushy job so the company could have a woman on staff and not be labeled sexist
you honor,
i rest my case..
Majority of women also don’t work the night shifts, or take the shitty jobs. You have to factor that in, also that they DO get pregnant, unfortunately, its a biological issue, not a sexist/gender issue. From an economical stand point, its more efficient to hire men in the work force. Women tend to take jobs that are less risky and easy to do. In an executive position, I don’t think it should matter. In other fields, its like purchasing a truck or car to do construction work. Sorry to get anyone angry.
Also sex sells, and Marissa is hot.
And women do the same thing in the work place. If not just as worse as men but we don’t care.
your whole posts reeks of trolling but I’ll take it seriously for the purpose of responding. This applies to equal pay for equal work how? Women in construction make less than guys in construction. Even if statistically women take the “easy” jobs they get paid less than men for those same jobs. Are you arguing that because some dude is a construction worker, some dude who works in an office should get bonus pay because he’s on the same team as the construction worker? Ridiculous Considering how few “hard jobs” are actually done in america the disparity in pay should be pretty much nonexistent. Manufacturing and harder labor jobs are rare in the US these days.
Call me crazy, but when two of my coworkers are on vacation I do not automatically have the right to take a week off at the same time. A small but entirely female department at my company just had 70% of the department out on maternity leave at the same time. That should be unacceptable, maybe I’ll never understand because I’m a guy, but maybe (just maybe) that’s a reason for women to be paid slightly (not much mind you) less than men. Women can get (depending on how many children they have) MANY months more paid leave than men ever have the opportunity for. Is the company supposed to eat that cost for every female employee? Slightly less pay might offset this cost that only women incur. Not trying to incite anger here, just pointing out that women, just because of their biology, have some expensive perks that men never do.
Wait, what? They get “MANY” more months in paid leave? I’m not sure if you’re talking about FMLA, but that applies to everyone. Your wife having a baby? Use FMLA to take up to 8 weeks off…unpaid mind you. Women and men both get to take time off if the couple has a baby. Both are equally treated in that regard.
no you dont understand because you’re silly or uninformed. I’m a guy and I understand. First off “pure” maternity leave is a rarity in the United States. it’s not law and most jobs don’t offer it. That leaves you with a combination of FMLA, Short term disability, and vacation days, you know.. the same things guys have. The only difference is women have to take it all at once, basically screwing themselves over if they get sick at any other point during the year. but let’s ignore that for a second… You do understand that when someone is out on maternity leave they’re physically recovering right? Not vacationing on the beach. Are you seriously griping because a woman get’s some awesome paid vacation for recovering from a very painful physical condition that basically disables them? Because you can throw yourself down some stairs if you’re that envious. Then you can take FMLA, sick pay and short term to recover as well. I mean I get that it leaves you in a lurch, but do you think either of your coworkers would be calling for a permanent lifetime paycut for you because you hurt your back one to 3 times a lifetime?
From a “fairness to the sexes” point of view I really wouldn’t want to take a financial hit because I decide to have a kid and if I were a single woman having a kid shouldn’t bankrupt me or make me lose my job. It takes two people to have a kid. Men don’t get maternity leave because men actually need 0 time to recover physically after they have a kid. Even then a few jobs offer maternity leave for men. For each woman that is getting a “free ride” for a few months, there’s a man who is benefiting from that free ride by not being out of work or losing the income (yes even with single parents) or having a wife that is now fired for not being at work when she physically can’t be.
lastly from a business point of view, 23% of lifetime wages is a HUGE cut to take for the small amount of time a woman is on maternity leave. The few places that do offer maternity leave offer 6 weeks at most. 6 weeks. Lets assume someone has an outlandish amount of kids… like 5. 30 weeks of pay does not amount to 23% of wages for life. an average adult spends 90,000+ hours of their life at work. 5 kids amounts to .2% of that time. Point 2.so yes… the company SHOULD eat that cost. Its actually an incredibly insignificant amount of money. Unfortunately contrary to what you believe most companies dont. 16 percent of companies offer paid maternity leave which is shameful. And what, women who never have kids just get a tax for the possibility of having kids?
The ONLY way your petty argument makes sense is in your own head because you’re upset that everyone is out while you pick up all the work for that time. That really does suck(and I actually mean that). But the same way I get a natural pissed off reaction when everyone is out at sick, the rational side of me understands that no one is out sick because they want to be and so hating the situation makes sense but hating the individuals because of it is just a misdirection of my anger. Also.. if it were your kid you’d be singing a different tune about the fairness of this all
So you rather have favoritism over sexism? From an economical point of view, males are more efficient then female.
There are jobs out there that women get paid way more then males but no one is arguing against that.
this is a pretty broad claim. Maybe in physical jobs there is a claim here… but most jobs in the U.S. are not physical labor, and most fields where men make more and hold most high level roles have nothing to do with what sex you are. If you actually believe a female accountant is less efficient than her male counterpart as a general rule then that’s kind of crazy. In fact most women I know that work in high level jobs bust their ass as much if not harder than their male counterparts because it took more work to get the recognition.
I love when people say things like “well there are jobs where women make more than men and no one is arguing against that.” It comes with the unspoken implication that there are as many jobs where women get paid more than men as vice versa. There are a handful of fields where women get paid more and almost all of them make 35k or less. Secondly it implies that somehow there’s a balance because two bad things happen. And for the record, in those fields I absolutely think men should get paid the same. A hairdresser is a hairdresser and if it’s a man or a woman they should get paid the same if they do their job correctly.
Wow, now that’s what I’m talking about! Everyone loves to get militant about anything they disagree with. Exactly why calm discourse has disappeared in this country, +1 for trying to tear me a new one. Did I mention hating anyone? Don’t think so.
how was my post “militant”? I presented a bunch of organized facts that went over what you said point by point… if you want to point out a flaw in what I said by all means do. I didn’t try to tear you a new one, I did present a counterpoint to every point you made. I reviewed it again to make sure and I really don’t think there was a personal attack in there (i suppose the petty comment could be mistaken as me calling you petty. to clarify i’m calling the argument petty not you). Calm discourse has disappeared because no one wants to hear why someone thinks they are wrong without immediately taking it personally.
I disagreed and gave you a bunch of reasons why your argument was flawed… that is not militant that is debating. The only thing you found worth picking out of that was the comment on hating people when their out sick? I don’t think you hate anyone dude (in fact I don’t even know you), but I think the frustration you feel for people being out for sick leave is misdirected at women as a group. You see “people are not working and I’m working way more as a result.” You are getting a raw deal, and the easy conclusion to make is that the cause of that is that someone is getting a free ride. But the fact is everyones getting a raw deal. You’re working double, and someone is out of work recovering. There’s no one getting a free ride there.
and if women are not able to use time off after labor how the heck would society even function now that a 2 income family is required to make a livable wage. Should only rich people have babies so they can afford when the wife has to quit her job to go into labor?
If you think I’m wrong by all means please tell me why and how and I promise I won’t take it personally. I may disagree some more, but I won’t take it personally
This article made me like this site more. Thanks, Rob.
It’s pretty disgusting the world we live in. It doesn’t matter if they’re CEOs or even the president of a country, men always undermine women. It’s a terrible thing.
A point to make though is, why does Phandroid not have any female writers. I personally only follow female bloggers on Twitter myself.
Pretty damn sick of hearing this tripe about how women are paid less than men.
Having just left a company where I was held back from an upper management position because I *wasn’t* a woman I find the argument just silly.
We all fight prejudices no matter who we are. I fight the prejudice that I’m a stupid oaf meathead because I’ve got the physique of a linebacker (ok, one thats been retired a couple years maybe). I supposedly threaten people when I walk in a conference room and haven’t even said a word.
Is that my fault? I don’t think it is. But you know what I did? Instead of whining and complaining about a glass ceiling, I just moved on to a better opportunity where I’m finding a great deal of success and satisfaction in my work.
So tired of all the stupid excuses people make up to justify what they see as the world against them due to no fault of their own.
I have no idea what job held you back for being a man. That’s definitely not right, but that experience really isn’t the norm. It’s usually the opposite. It’s not right in your case nor is it right in the reverse. Now because it isn’t the norm, you were able to find another opportunity, which is great for you. If you were a women that would be a lot harder to do (not always impossible, but also not always possible or easy)
The baffling thing to me is that you claim you were discriminated against. you overcame it, and the lesson to you was that people need to stop whining and man up and just not allow themselves to be discriminated against. If I get mugged I don’t feel like my reaction would be people just need to stop letting themselves be mugged. That’s an ass backwards way to look at it. Shouldn’t the answer be that you shouldn’t have been discriminated against regardless of whether you overcame it or not? Does the fact you overcame the discrimination somehow validate discrimination for everyone?
There are a lot of stories like yours here. Women need to stop complaining because one time in my life being a man was negative so obviously discrimination doesn’t exist. Fact. I mean do you really not see the problem with that reasoning?
Look, I’m not going to say that discrimination doesn’t occur, because it does. And it happens in both directions. I will say that it isn’t the norm. I do not believe that, in general, anyone is held down or advanced because of gender/race/etc. Of course you can find it if you look for it. But, 98% of the time, it doesn’t happen. No one is handing me stuff in life because I’m a man. I’ve been passed over for a promotion, and the position was given to a woman. Fine. I’m not saying the boss was sexist. She chose the person she thought would be the best for her department, and gender didn’t play into the equation at all. I do think that service positions tend to be more frequently considered as an option by women, and tend to be shunned by men. You see more women in those positions, and that skews the general “wage averages”. And a sad side effect is that it’s easy to get trapped in a low position like that. You should read a book called “Waiting”, which explains how many women in serving roles are really waiting on something to come. Sometimes, it never comes, and they spend their entire life in service. Like I pointed out, it’s statistically lower that men take that kind of position, so they don’t get stuck in waiting. And THAT is the reason for the wage discrepancy, and not discrimination.
I dunno it’s hard to have an accurate perspective on this one way or the other. How do you know it doesn’t happen 98% of the time. I’m sure to someone living in a posh neighborhood it must appear as if the crime rarely happens. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t. Being a white male is like permanently having a posh neighborhood as your environment 100% of the time. I’m not sure how it is on a national level, but theres a big national plumbing chain whos name I wont mention that is a big example of that here in virginia. There are a few women who crawl out of entry level in this area. but men get promoted with months of experience. It’s a plumbing warehouse so it has a very good ole boy feel to the work place and frankly I don’t think anyone who works there would ever say they were discriminating but if you look at the company as a whole and look at the women who work there and compare them to the men who hold leadership clearly there is a trend there. There are a lot of bright women locked into sales or secretary positions (that WANT to move up) and a bunch of guys, some great salesmen and some whos stats dont measure up who move into management way quicker.
as for the jobs people choose to take that’s definitely influenced by cultural norms and we live in a patriarchal society. But yes there is a problem with women joining some of the higher paid fields. For the sake of making narrowing this down though, I dont feel that woman as a hole need to make 50% of the money. I do think women should be paid the same for the same jobs. The rest is a more complicated problem to solve.
I think it’s funny that you tear down a guy who gave a personal testimony, then reply to my post with your own personal testimony.
Equal work/Equal pay hasn’t been a problem at any of the five places I’ve worked in my lifetime, nor at any of the places that my wife, my dad, my mom, my siblings, or my inlaws and all of THEIR relatives have worked. Trust me, we’re always at a loss when people talk about this on the news, because most companies make it clear what everyone is making as a baseline. Raises are based on performance reviews and such, and these are also generally known to everyone. Until you get into upper management, salaries and wages have always been a matter of official record at our respective jobs. I think that’s fairly standard anywhere you go.
I’m not posh. I have a $55,000 house (bought before the downturn, so I couldn’t sell it for that much now), and I make less than $2,500 per month. I’m not posh. I work both a full time and a part time job to make ends meet (meaning 60 hrs), and I’m also a musician with an orchestra, so my week can gust up to 75 hrs of work with rehearsals. So I’m white and male. So what. I haven’t had anything given to me because of that.
I refuse to accept blame/responsibility/lectures for isolated incidents that have no reality in my life. I earn everything I have, and I refuse to be guilty about that. As for those isolated incidents, let it be known what the companies that play those games are doing, and let Joe Consumer vote with his dollars.
I get tired of hearing about women’s rights in the workforce when men don’t have equal rights at home.
Peach!
Can we please stop repeating the lies that some in the political realm are repeating that women make 77 cents on the dollar for doing the same job that a man does. That argument has been proven FALSE. I’m quite disgusted to come onto my tech website and get this bullshit “fed” to me here as well. All they have done is taken the AVERAGE of all male workers and the AVERAGE of all female workers and then said men make more.
How do you think an ‘Average’ works, Michah? Allow me to demonstrate a simple example.
Group A: 3 men get paid the following:
Person 1: $12
Person 2: $19
Person 3: $14
The Average for group A’s pay is $15.
Group B: 3 women get paid the following:
Person 1: $14
Person 2: $10
Person 3: $12
The Average for Group B’s pay is $12.
Some people in group 2 may be paid more than some people in group 1, but the Average of all men is that each individual gets paid more than each individual woman. Does that seem fair to you?
An average for two groups does not require the groups to be the same size – although a more balanced male/female ratio is something we should definitely be working towards.
The argument has not been proven false and that’s extremely unfortunate.
Take a moment and read this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jillian-berman/yes-by-any-way-you-measur_b_4725356.html
And this is what the study that those that cite did:
Group A (all male):
Person 1: $20 works as a bartender
Person 2: $100 works as a lawyer
Person 3: $20 works as a server
Average Group A’s pay: $46.66
Group B (all female):
Person 1: $20 works as a bartender
Person 2: $20 works as a server
Person 3: $20 works as a server
Average Group B’s pay: $20
Equal pay for equal work is what that statement is claiming by the number that is tossed around (77 cents). The problem is there are many factors and taking a simple average does not equate to equal pay for equal work. The claim is false. And has been shown to be such.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html
Yes, I am aware of the citation. But does that not scream inequality to you? Why are we finding females only as servers and bartenders, while males get to be lawyers?
Those findings are outlined in the article I posted earlier. The issue at hand should not be limited to an individual citation but rather a genuine discrepancy between men and women in the workplace.
By any logical argument, equal pay for equal work is totally fair, and by your argument, that may be true (other studies have shown different findings). However, women are not receiving equal work. They are not lawyers, or engineers, or computer scientists. They are ‘bartenders’, ‘servers’, or caregivers. Why is that? Is that fair?
Again, that argument has been outlined in the article I posted before:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jillian-berman/yes-by-any-way-you-measur_b_4725356.html
Great, now that we agree that the claim is false, can we stop spreading it around as if it has any truth value?
You should read the book called “Waiting”. It’s about servers, and why so many of them are women. They are doing just what the title says, waiting on something. Sometimes it’s a better job opportunity, sometimes it’s marriage, sometimes it’s the money for more school, yada, yada, yada. But the truth is, many women see service as an option when many men don’t. Now, as to where THAT comes from, I’ll leave it to you, but I’ll leave you with this. My wife was a server. She was a server before we met, and she was a server 7 years after we were married. However, at that point, she was sick to death of the job, we were out of debt, and I could support us (barely) on my own. So, I gave her the option to quit, and she took it. Now, call that whatever you want, we are BOTH extremely happy with the situation.
A big part of the reason why women aren’t more prevalent in some of the male dominated areas (I see a ton of women lawyers) is because, for the most part, women don’t strive for these jobs. To make things equal would be unfair. To make things equal we would have to hire people who are not qualified just so that the statistics satisfy you. Why do you see more female nurses than male nurses, it’s just not fair, or maybe it’s just because more females than males strive to be a nurse.
Nah, they used to complain that the new 45 year old woman CEO was not making as much as the 65 year old CEO. Once you are CEO, a lot of the pay is based on “who you know.” I would suspect that someone in the business for 45 years would have more contacts than someone in for 25 years. I would suspect the same goes for any other job, if you have been doing it longer you will make more money.
Glad to see The Daily Beast is offering an objective analysis of this.
We know how an average work. The problem is that it’s misleading. For it to be accurate you need to take averages from the same jobs/careers, and not just in general.
Lol unfair? 93% of all work related deaths(accounts for 16% of all deaths in the u.s) last year were men not women, if the average women wants to get payed as much as the average men than let them climb up a bridge or a building at a construction site. You don’t expect a women sitting behind a desk or a counter to get payed as much as a guy working 100+ feet up in the air or below ground in harsh conditions. Look at most firefighters and police officers, they’re mostly men as well.
http://m.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/mskpages/Work_related_fatalities?open
Any chance of you backing up your “facts” with you know, actual facts.
Sure. Take a look at the information here: http://www.iwpr.org/publications/pubs/the-gender-wage-gap-2010-updated-march-2011
Go to the source and look at it for yourself. The study is not doing what people are making claims about it. The claim is 77% on the dollar for equal work, which factually has not been proven true. Despite that, people continue to make that fallacious claim.
Incredibly disappointed Rob’s regurgitating the “77 cents for every dollar” lie. I’m convinced people that use this false “fact” just want women to think less of themselves in hopes of using them as pawns for personal or political gain. While I agree that sexist comments are sexist comments and should be taken seriously, Phandroid needs to get a clue.
How many female workers does phandroid employ and what is their pay compared to males?
This never happened to JFK junior.
Why are there no women on the phandroid team?? hmm…
I would love to hire a woman for Phandroid. If you know of any Android loving females looking for a writing gig, let me know.
That being said we have 2 women on our team: our lead Web Developer and one of our Gaming Editors.
Nice… Great article BTW nice change of pace
Chris would scare them away….lol
Anecdotal evidence is never as good hard facts, but I’ll share my experiences thus far. My sister always scored very high marks in all of her classes. Some were better than others, but in high school she consistently scored 95 or higher in every class, including math and the sciences. I was generally a high 80s low 90s student in high school, but early on I knew I wanted to pursue mechanical engineering. I’m older, and when my sister was looking at schools and programs I actively encouraged her to take the engineering rout. She informed me that despite her proficiency in math and science, she hated both of them and could not see herself pursuing them further in her career. Instead she chose to pursue second languages. Keep in mind we grew up in a suburban neighborhood and school system where from day one girls and boys are told they can do whatever they want when they grow up. Her choice was based purely on what she enjoyed, not fear of being ostracized in a technology field. Fast forward a couple of years and you will find that I am making about double her salary. She graduated with a language degree and is working for an insurance company. I graduated with my Bachelors and Masters in mechanical engineering and am working for a technology company. It’s not because she’s not as intelligent as I am, I’m confident that she is smarter than I am, it’s because she wasn’t interested in technology and her field doesn’t pay as much.
Now this is a very personal example, but I have seen similar results from my other classmates. In most of my math and science courses my female classmates were consistently top performers, but only a quarter of them decided to peruse a technology, math, or science degree in school.Those who I spoke to voiced similar opinions as my sister. They just weren’t interested in that sort of career.
Something interesting I found is that in both schools I attended the mechanical engineering program was always sparsely populated with woman, while the chemical engineering program was close to 50/50 men and women. Is this because mechanical engineering doesn’t welcome women, or there be psychological differences between men and women which makes us predisposes us to different industries? It definitely isn’t due to lack of capability; many would argue that chemical engineering is a more challenging degree. Keep in mind that there are several programs, such as SWE, that actively try to pull woman into engineering programs.
As someone who recruits for their company several times a year, I can tell you that we are actively seeking women engineers. To a certain extent though it’s a numbers game. It’s easy to find good men or woman chemical engineers since the populations are so closely matched. On the mechanical side I have found there are a greater number of stellar male candidates than stellar female candidates. Shouldn’t this be expected due to population size? If men and woman are equal intellectually, based on statistics alone shouldn’t the larger population have a larger number of above average individuals? Carrying this forward, if there are more men in technology fields shouldn’t more men be expected to be in management positions? Generally one is promoted to management based on their skill and competence in their current position as well as their leadership skills. As I’m sure many of you have seen, not everyone is cut out for management. Until there are an equal number of men and women in technology fields, which really shouldn’t be too far in the future, shouldn’t it be expected that there won’t be an equal number of men and women in leadership roles?
You can’t force women to become engineers just for the sake of having women in tech related fields, either they want it or not. I’m currently an electrical and computer engineering student and I can tell you from first hand experience that men outnumber women by 1-10 . The male students in most of my classes are also way too shy and socially awkward to hit on those females, cause let’s face it they’re made up of mostly geeks. The weird thing is those women in my class end up taking action and start flirting with the guys and not the other way around. On the other hand their is always that one loud, obnoxious donkeyhole that makes women feel uncomfortable but not all men are created equal either. So to say all men are loud, and obnoxious due to the actions of one is also a fallacy.
If we want to go down this road, companies need to be offering paternity leave that matches paid maternity leave. Some already do, but it’s incredibly uncommon.
Spare me the “men don’t shoot babies out of their midsections” crap. What about the mother who could use the extra support at home during the first weeks?
well paid maternity leave is pretty uncommon. choose your battles. I personally believe men should have paternity leave as well but when only 16% of jobs offer paid maternity leave to begin with. And anyway you carve it if only one sex is getting leave it should default to women… you know, since they are pretty much unable to work after labor. When 100% of jobs offer paid maternity leave though I will be right there with you asking for paid paternity leave as well.
What’s this maternity leave of which you speak?
Thank you for this piece, Rob. Please, more like it.
P.S. The comments here are disgusting. Male privilege in action.
Any of this “privilege” stuff is nonsense
This is an example of tactlessness rather than “privilege”
this is too dumb,…. ANY company would ONLY hire women if they could get equal performance and value AND have it only cost 77% the hiring and expense cost of a man.
Let that sink in your little brain and move onto a more important global or economic or humanitarian topic………….. BORING
hiring is done on the local level. Bottom line factors in, but the people doing the discrimination dont necessarily care about paying someone a bit more. Especially if it justifies the fact the person hiring gets paid well.
Congratulations Rob. You just drove away a reader who very conscientiously was trying to pay back your blog by clicking on ad links and telling people to read your content. Now, I shall take my business to another blog that doesn’t mistake itself for HuffingtonPost; and tell everyone I know to use other blogs for Android news. Oh, and next time you want to sound like someone concerned about actual inequality instead of DNC shill, skip Obama pictires. And skip long-debunked “77%” BS that doesn’t actually measure pay for either equal work, OR normalize for many other things that affect pay
Oh dear – you are very angry, what about exactly?
I can not say strongly enough how much i dispise radical feminism. It should be ok for a game to be written for a target audience. It should be ok for guys to get paid more on average if on average they neglect their family/personal lives more for money. Its even ok theres so much fewer women in tech jobs and ceo positions. Women in mass have made it clear. THEY dont want to be techys or take business courses. They want more women techys…. but not them. I had a starting at 40,000 a year job waiting for my niece plus all the free tutoring she could want if she took a computer science degree. It didn’t even tempt her, shes sticking with the steriotype vet-assistant or nurse.
But in this case, I have to say speaker was 100% wrong. This guy wasn’t her friend. Nor was this an aproprate place to try and connect with a women. I dont think he should be punished for this stupidity but definitly called out on it. People need to learn to be more professional in a professional enviroment. This isn’t even a gender issue really.
Now Marissa is good people. Shes got money to make and no time for anoying drama. But sadly there are people male and female who love drama and making mountains out of ant hills for attention. If anything, that dissruption is what hurts everyone by drawing attention to issues that shoukd exist. Youtube elivator gate for a modern example.
The question might be, are women making the choice not to be techie or is society making it not an okay choice for women to be techie? If you are told that its not your place and the people in the area of you interest reject you (jeez just look at the comment section here!!) then what person in their right mind would commit the rest of their lives to that career?
“Barra was only offered half of her male predecessors salary.”
No. According to CNN, Forbes, Business Week, and other news agencies, Barra is being paid 60% more than her predecessor.
As soon as I saw this and knew it to be false, I quit reading. When you can’t use facts because it doesn’t fit your story line, what’s the point of continuing on?
Plus, using the premise that men and women are the same is grossly misleading. You look at pay but refuse to look at time spent at work (according to the Wall Street Journal, the average male spending ten more hours at work than women).
and men do more hazardous work than women. An electrician in an oil refinery makes more than a commercial electrician.
Thanks for this article. I don’t agree with all of your points, but discrimination in business, and especially tech, is a serious issue that deserves attention. If these behaviors aren’t pointed out then it’s easy for others to propagate them without even realizing they are doing something that hurts people.
Wow, just wow…I mean you can find issue with some of the points of an article but the absolute vitriol in this (and every article I see about women’s issues it seems) just really serves to prove the point. There are a lot of angry men out there that hate the idea that women could or even should be in tech/business.
Aaaaaaand unsubscribed from RSS feed…
If this one article (out of tens of thousands that we’ve published) drove you to unsubscribe from the RSS feed, then it’s just as well. This blog/forum exists to contribute to a marketplace of ideas, not a closed wall toot-your-own-horn and pat-yourself-on-the-back fest.
If you don’t like the article topic, don’t click it. If you don’t agree with the article content, I welcome you to voice your difference in opinion, as many others have. It’s not like this is an NRA meeting and I just made a post suggesting we ban guns… I mean really, I’m not sure why people’s feelings are so delicate.
I subscribed to this as one of a few sites to get ANDROID information… this falls nowhere under that category. If I want politics I have a section of my news feed for that, as well. I don’t need technology news written from a bent of any party… I don’t need it here, and as I said: I get android news from other sites that don’t try to spew the talking points of a political party. I get the same story about three times from the various sites, and was thinking about quelling that anyway. This made the choice [on which to thin] easy.
I do appreciate your condescension, though… It’s not like I said you should be fired for what you believe, as would have been done by others if you’d have wrote from the opposite viewpoint..
And you just waved your “I’m a sexist flag” WELL DONE!!!
I’m confused, I thought if I disagreed with the current administration on anything I was a racist…? I love how disagreement with the injection of political opinion pieces on a silo’d technology blog makes me a political misfit… carry on with the indoctrination!
What a hypocrite?!?!
If you want to take advantage of being a woman, don’t complain about being treated differently. Women has done very well using every bit of advantage. That’s only fair.
Women in tech are doing perfectly fine without jerks like you writing useless articles.
What’s next? Equality for short people? ugly people? fat people? brown people? yellow people? freckled people?
Yeah, I mean, I think equality for all people is good. Since I’m not a woman, I’m not sure how “hypocrite” makes any applicable sense? If I was a woman, it still wouldn’t make sense.
So you think you have to be a woman to be a hypocrite? Let’s see. You suggested that people making comments about Marissa Mayer’s looks are sexist and that women in tech are not being treated equally. The simple act of writing this article shows that you are the sexist who thinks complimenting people for their looks is sexist just because Marissa Mayer happens to be a woman. So, tell me again how you aren’t a hypocrite?
(1) Thinking Marissa Mayer is attractive isn’t sexist: I think she is gorgeous.
(2) Making remarks that Marissa Mayer is attractive isn’t sexist: I just made one myself.
(3) Publicly commenting on a CEO’s physical appearance in a derogatory manner at a business function during a Q&A where the topic is the stock of a Fortune 500 Company? Yeah, I think there’s a problem with that.
“It was great to see a woman – Mary Barra – become the first female CEO of General Motors this year. Some found it especially wonderful given the male-centric nature of the auto-industry. But for those that didn’t read the fine print: Barra was only offered half of her male predecessors salary.”
She has no executive experience, and is taking over at a time when GM’s massive troubles appear to be — for now — behind them.
The predecessor (whose name you conveniently avoid mentioning) was Dan Akerson, who proved his value with amazing performance in the past with Nextel and the Carlisle Group. He took over at one of the darkest periods in GM’s history and succeeded in vastly helping the company regain it’s previous value. When Barra proves that she’s worth Akerson’s salary, she’ll have it.
I actually agree with your general thesis here, Rob — no doubt women have it tougher. But getting your business knowledge from Think Progress isn’t doing you any favors. Stick to Android.
PS- Mayer’s done nothing for Yahoo that they couldn’t have done on autopilot, so if I were a stockholder looking for something to compliment, I’d have a hard time coming up with anything besides her looks as well. That at least puts her one up on Meg Whitman. who, in the grand tradition of HP CEO’s, has nothing at all to compliment. Speaking of which, why isn’t there any mention of Carly Fiorina’s $30-million kiss goodbye from HP? Doesn’t it fit in with your view of women in tech?
Mary Barra lives and breathes GM. Read up on her experience. I’d take that over someone who has been an “exec” somewhere else simply because they’ve been an exec somewhere else any day of the week.
Dan Ackerson also presided over a huge government bailout that made it almost impossible for the big auto makers to fail. I didn’t name him because it was somewhat irrelevant to the article’s point, in my opinion.
Mayer has done A LOT at Yahoo, from instituting specific mandates for all employees (see working from home guidelines) to making decisions on shuttering some business divisions and acquiring others (Tumblr). She has played a key role in Yahoo’s recent success.
And female sex offenders get 9 months probation and a fine while males get 25 to life. Life is not fair, there are double standards, get over it.
So here’s an idea: Phandroid should hire a female to report some news.
This is sarcasm, right???
Funny because Obama pays his female staff less than the male counterparts http://www do dailymail dot co dot uk/news/article-2128513/Women-paid-significantly-Obama-White-House-male-counterparts.html
Obama to women: if you like your job, you can keep your job. Period.