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This all started back in March when Apple took HTC to court for patent infringement. Unlike Apple’s attack on Samsung, their battle with HTC largely deals with the Android operating system found on HTC’s devices. Google recently stepped in and through threw HTC a bone by way of a few patents and now Google is speaking out to a trade panel regarding HTC and how they shouldn’t be banned from the US if, hypothetically, they are found guilty on infringing on a few of Apple’s patents. Google had this to say,
“Apple is the largest seller of mobile computing devices in the U.S. Allowing this supplier to eliminate the competition from a fast-moving maverick competitor (HTC) could drive up prices, diminish service, decrease consumers’ access to the technology and reduce innovation.”
HTC and their devices account for a third of Android devices sold in the US. Google’s main argument is that HTC and their use of Android are helping to “prevent Apple and iOS from becoming the sole viable mobile platform.” Google also pointed out Apple’s patent case against Samsung and Motorola who all use Android as their primary mobile OS. Google went on to say that an Apple victory in the HTC case could cause a domino effect, leading to a monopoly on the mobile industry in the U.S. Yeah, things are that serious.
We’ll know the outcome of this case on Dec. 6th when a commission is scheduled to announce its decision. Let’s hope public interest weighs in heavily on their decision.
[Via Bloomberg]
You go Google! <3
Is there not a better argument for Google to put forth? This isn’t a legal fight as much as determining who is the “real coke”. For the reasons that Google stated Apple doesn’t want to win. Monopolies get messed with by the government. Intel basically gave AMD a bunch of money in order to keep them going so that Intel isn’t a monopoly.
What better argument is there?
In honor of Steve Jobs.
It all seems pretty petty on both sides. I wish they would all stfu and share each others info to make sic phones. People are gonna like Apple because it’s Apple and they like iOS and they’ll love ANdroid for the openness. I’ve had a mac for 10 years and I hate iOS, and now starting to hate Android. Maybe I’ll try Mango.
You do realize that Microsoft, the makers of Mango, make more money off of Android phones than they do from their own phones right? Why you ask? Because of past patent lawsuits that have resulted in licensing payments, so MS is guilty of this as well.
As far as the Apple vs. HTC/Samsung/etc. lawsuits, most of that started with Apple suing Android manufacturers. Most suits against Apple are in retaliation for Apple’s suits and they’re being used to try to balance the situation. You want to block me? Fine, then I’ll block you. You want licensing payments for your patents? Fine, then you pay me for the ones you’re infringing on as well.
Everyone just needs to step back, stop suing each other, and let the quality of their products do the talking.
I repeat. I wish everyone would stfu, share tech and make sic phones. i don’t need a run down of why the sky is blue. If I’m posting on a Phandroid site, it’s probably because I’m tech savvy and understand the underbelly of the smart phone market. I don’t care about WHO creates Mango, I care whether the OS works well for me.
And that’s the reason why a lot of people get iphones. It works well. I couldn’t get an iphone morally even if I wanted one over android because as a company apple stands for too many things I’m against.
Maybe you should care. Man seriously, any brief review of Microsoft’s history both as a company and of their technical proficiency should give you all sorts of pause in considering switching to them for anything.
Because Apple’s the perfect model? Even Android has completely disregarded many patents. What does that say about Google? And don’t get me started on privacy issues with Eric Schmidt. At the end of the day they are all corporations that care about fleecing you.
I repeat, just give me the best OS, I’ll deal with the moral repercussions because they are all evil in some way.
“completely disregarded many patents”
Here is the problem with your argument though. The current patent system is such that competitors have no say on whether or not a patent is valid until after the patent is granted and they then can defend themselves if they believe there is “prior art” or is too obvious, etc.
The exact rule is that the patented feature must be something that is innovative and not obvious to someone “trained in the art”.
In other words, if you believe a patent is BS, you have to ignore it, wait for them to sue, then defend yourself and say it is “obvious to someone trained in the art”. And it becomes an enormous courtroom drama.
So Apple can patent “pinch to zoom” even though there is ample evidence that it existed years before (there is a very public demo of it on youtube by Jeff Han at TED in 2005) Apple argued it was the first time on a phone. BAm, patented? WTF.
See the problem with software patents yet?
DnD Buddy:
Well this is stupid, I can’t reply to you, so hopefully you’ll read this some time.
I don’t think you read all the arguments in the thread because you more or less made my argument for me. I could care less about phone patents and was using Apple and Google as proof that everyone is more or less “stealing” from each other so why not drop the stupid patents and just make good OS’s for phones. People will by what they like.
So what your suggesting is that we should have no patents on anything? Just freely copy any thing?
He is saying Apple is trying to burn everybody, and well everybody is not going to take it lightly and is going to burn them back. If people don’t stop trying to burn each other, then everybody is going to burn.
Simple enough?
Sorry Marvin, It’s not that simple.
Your suggesting that Apple should file no suits even though it’s clear that violations are taking place? Maybe they should just hand the design and all the code over to Google, Samsung and HTC?
If everybody just copy’s everything innovation will case to exist.
Do want the next life saving drug?
Do you want the next cool phone?
If you invest 100’s of millions of dollars into a product that can be duplicated how do you suggest that it’s protected? How many time do you think the investment can be made before the company goes bankrupt?
Its very simple.
Companies have been mostly quiet when it comes to the Iphone, even if it infringed on their patents. Why? because they believe in COMPETITION. They ignored more like let it slide or “didn’t bother” looking for reason to sue Apple.
Now that Apple has decided to sue, guess what? These same companies are now saying ok fine, time to check to see if your product infringes on our patents. Holy mother they DO.
Its like you said defensive patent suing. See the difference?
One hits first, the other defends. So say whatever you want to say, Apple is may have the first couple battles, but the War will be won by other companies such i don’t know Google owned Motorola and HTC.
Im sure apple wouldn’t like it if they were banned from a country. To do that to a company and it’s customers who like HTC is irresponsible.
I have to agree with googles statement regarding a win for apple.
They should postpone it to honor steve
Do you think if Andy Rubin died that Steve Jobs would postpone out of respect? Google & Samsung already pushed back the new Nexus announcement because of Jobs passing.
We have left our condolences, some things have been postponed, but the whole world is not going to grind to a halt, just like it doens’t for anyone else of signifigance who passes on.
I don’t know if you realize it Jim, but he is to be canonized before the end of the funeral. So sayeth the almighty Apple.
I wish it could work that way. Apple is a publicly traded company, which means it’s legally obligated to try to make the most money possible for its investors. Those kinds of corporations simply can’t show human decency because it would cost them. That’s the sad truth of corporate business.
Y can’t we all get along—-
But anyway I android has progressed so much as late constantly raising the bar the same way apple did.
I am not an apple supporter in anyway but give credit where its due.. but I was surprised with what apple released with the 4s… maybe they r more focused on lawsuits then they r focused on what they r/were good at,
These stupid patent lawsuits will only take one win/loss to cripple the mobile phone industry. And that’s sad..
These patants should maybe be thrown in a bag for everyone to use. As at this point practically the companies who own these patants are not the ones who initially came up with the ideas, they aquired them either by sale or being the first to get a patent claim submitted.
Are u serious postpone get the fuck out worst enough Samsung and google are postponing the debut of the Nexus Prime
Yeah I agree with google stand point on this and hope it takes are concerns over big corporation Chris.
I laugh my ass off when I read this stuff. Apple sues everybody for making a phone that is better then their own iphone. They try to ban it. Saying they “infringed” on their parents. Yet they infringe on other parents themselves, like samsung, then say that they have the right to? What makes them so special? Jobs made the company what it is, and now that he is gone apple will crash. They don’t have their savior to save them. R.I.P. Jobs, and take your company with you please. I mean that with no disrespect, except for the company in it’s entirety. F–k apple!
Last I heard, Apple was sitting on a mountain of cash — $75B or so. Based on the 4S, Apple’s strategy appears to be to go all out on investment in litigation over innovation. I have worked with patents before and their is little absolute about them — in fact they are usually written as vaguely as possible. Apple is gambling that if they take a shock-and-awe shotgun assault approach on their competitors through the courts, they can make up for their lack of ingenuity.
i have a feel HTC will be banned. Company with most money will win. just take Michael Jackson’s case as example.
I work for a major carrier and see it like this: Apple is for smartphone newbies because admittedly it is easy to use. I’ve never once sold an iPhone and had to help my client set it up. I always “teach” my clients how to set up and use their Android phone. Android is far too customizable for the novice user. Which is the main reason I do, and always will, use Android. Apple is supposedly going to be adding their equivalent of a notification bar to their next iPhone os. I feel that would be incredible patent infringement. I almost feel like since apple was the first most viable and successful smartphone manufacturer they feel as though anything any other manufacturer does is infringement. But legalities aside, I agree with the people that said just let the products speak for themselves. Neither Apple nor Google are in danger of going out of business because if one another. Corporate greed is sickening on all sides. I feel the supreme court of the united states, and the equivalent in other countries should throw all charges out and just tell these corporations to just get over it. Build the phones you’re good at creating and let the consumer make the final decision.
Exactly. What if Ford had done this in the auto industry? The difference here is that they didn’t sue everyone when someone came out with something newer or better. They dug in and innovated and came back with something competitive, as did their competition when Ford released their new/better thing. That’s the nature of competition and innovation, bring your A game or go home. Because of this we have what we have today in terms of technology. If this sue the competition out of business mentality had started in the 50s or 60s, we’d be about at the technology level we had in the 80s today.
Let’s not forget Ford acted this way after their patents expired. For a long time you get a black ford and that was all there was. No choice and no options.
I agree with you full on. Like you mentioned the notification bar, there are a few changes in iOS5 that Android and google have been doing for a while.
I got some friends who are going into corporate law. I think they chose a lucrative career.
Google’s argument makes no sense, infringing on another company’s patents to prevent a competing OS from becoming too popular? Lol.
I’m convinced. Apple people can’t read. This is why they much such a deal deal about Apple being easier to use. It requires no thought.
that’s not the argument at all. They’re saying that if Apple wins this frivolous suit (based on patents that should never have been awarded), then everything but iOS will be banned and Apple will have an illegal monopoly. I have no idea how you managed to come to your ass-backwards understanding of it.
I am pretty sure that the laws on monopolies say that if intellectual property is the source of a monopoly then the owner of the intellectual property must exercise best efforts in creating a licensing agreement… Google’s main point is that they are refusing to do so to preserve monopolistic control not only in the OS but the app store AND hardware.
The economic incentive of preserving the monopoly is the same reason why Standard Oil was broken up if you think about it. Apple has no incentive to open up competition on the OS level because that would totally eliminate the monopolies they have been afforded by vertical integration & their “honorable” role in making sure that only Apple and users have control over the users’ phones…
Sadly, Apple has more control over iphones than the users. Yet iphone users don’t care because it still makes them look cool! lol. Although, I have a D2G and am getting really frustrated with the segmentation and software time lags. I had to read about gingerbread for 7 months before I got it pushed to me!
The patent is a legally granted monopoly by the US government. The owner of the patent has no obligation what so ever to create a license agreement.
Just because huge companies like Google and Samsung decide to copy and mass produce items that are patented does not mean that the patent holder is obligated to provide a license to them. If they were what good would the patent system be?
They are required to develop a licensing agreement if the patent is seen shutting out a broad market from healthy competition. You are right when it comes to things like pharmaceuticals. But just because one company makes a MAO inhibitor doesn’t mean no one else can, they just can’t use the same compound.
The wording in these patents are so broad that it shuts down competition in a broad sector. Get it? So, Apple can gain financial gain from licensing the patent- which still rewards them for their intellectual property. However, by shutting down the idea of licensing they are showing that it isn’t about the financial reward but the preservation of a monopoly. But just like everything in law, it is all in how you frame it! Apple has good lawyers…
In a set of very limited cases where an antitrust violation occurred the courts can force a patentee to license as a remedy. The amount of times it has happened in the US is very few. There is almost zero chance that’s going to happen since Apple has only 5% of the handset market.
A patent is a legal monopoly. If the patent is so broad that no one can get around it that’s too bad. Unless it can be shown that Apple used it’s patents in one market to monopolize another they are protected.
Samsung, HTC and Google have a huge problem. No one forced thees companies to develop products that violate Apples patents. Just because they chose to build and distribute them and the public bought them in droves affords them no protection. They know this.. Thats why they are trying to buy IP that they can use as leverage in a fight with Apple. IMHO they will fail and they will pay huge amounts to Apple.
Yup lets watch them TRY to get Google seeing how they own Motorola or HTC seeing how they have made/developed touch phones before Apple did or how Samsung has many communication patents as well. Id say Apple is afraid of the competition seeing how they are throwing the first punch.
How funny, you are ignoring Ankush Surana’s comment.
Jamie i disagree with you what you said “apple was the first most viable and successful smartphone manufacturer”. Is it some kind of joke. Read the achievements of HTC first…
First color palm-size PC (1999)
First Microsoft Pocket PC (2000)
First Microsoft wireless Pocket PC (2002)
First Microsoft powered Smartphone (2002)
First Microsoft Smart Music Phone (2004)
Large 2.8″ TFT touch-screen LCD display
First Microsoft 3G Phone (2005)
First Microsoft Windows Mobile 5.0 Platform Phone (2005)
First tri-band UMTS 3G device on the Microsoft Windows Mobile platform (2006)
First Microsoft Windows 5.0 Smartphone (2006)
First Tri-band UMTS PDA
First intuitive touch screen to allow finger tip navigation (June 2007)
“Iphone was launch in Sept 2007”.
Someone needs to go on the offensive with this. Because what is happening is that all of us Android supporters look like we’re buying the black market smart phone. Not a stigma we want to persist if we want Android be acceptable. I’m sick of the fan boys gloating and walking around like they’re superior and have the original.
Alot of the Patents being argued over seem to be Patents that cover things that have become common practice today as well as that seem to be plain out right stupid… Apple had to go LOOKING for this case, it wasn’t by word of mouth they sat there and said “How and what can we do to bring down Android. Go grab some Source and some devices to take apart”
It’s amazing how the fandroids have no clue about what a patent is and why it’s so important. Just because you like your Adroid phone does not mean it’s OK to copy patented technology and design.
Look at it from another perspective. Say your a drug company and you invest 100’s of millions of dollars in a new lifesaving drug. A week after you have it on the market the drug is synthesized and shortly a copy is available. How long do you think drug companies would last? Who would suffer? The customer!
Go back to 2006. No iPhone, no Android, no real smartphones.
Apple comes up with the iPhone, applies for patent protection in many areas, selects Samsung as it’s supplier for memory, processors and screens. In 07 it releases the iPhone. Shortly Samsung comes up with the galaxy, clearly a copy of the iPhone.
Without Apples innovation the Androids don’t exist, period.
Google, Samsung, HTC and all the rest are scared of Apple. They should be. Apple had filed for many patents related to the iPhone. Most of them have yet to be approved due to the backlog. When they do issue the Android OS and all the phones that use it will have a problem that’s much larger that they do now. Google, Samsung and HTC all know this. That’s why they are spending billions trying to buy patents to build a defense. They know that they can’t win otherwise.
I wonder where you work or how you make a living. Do you think it’s OK for your company’s competitors to copy technology that you own?
um I had the HTC Mogul before apple released their piece of crap.
You mean your windows CE piece of junk?
Its called Windows Mobile. Its been around since 2003. YEARS before development even started for Iphone (2005) Windows Mobile 6 (which was decent) was Feb 2007.
HTC Touch 2
Except for the two prime patents that Apple is attacking HTC with – that were under dispute from Motorola as their prior art not protected by patent at the time – your argument makes sense.
Just because someone has a patent doesn’t mean it’s valid when challenged.
Further, the courts have traditionally reserved severe sanctions for purposeful copying and failure to acknowledge, and less severe penalties for other cases. There’s no evidence that HTC copied, there’s ample evidence that they developed independently. Further, HTC asked Apple to sit down and hammer out a deal on licensing and Apple flat out refused. Apple’s remedy, to put people out of work without even hearing an offer, is unreasonable.
Apple is acting equally scared (at least), and the expectations on the courts is not following precedence in the US.
I hold sole inventor and joint inventor status on a number of hardware and software patents – and I can say from firsthand knowledge that the change to our patent office’s practices in the dot com days is abhorrent and in need of a serious overhaul.
As you say, no one should profit at the sweat of another’s brow, but these cases are far from that in practice – but in the press, they falsely claim right to that principle.
Just because HTC wants Apple to sit down and hammer out a deal does not mean they are obligated or should. What your suggesting is that they should build and distribute a product then ask for a deal? Better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.
HTC, Samsung, Google.. They all knew exactly what they were doing when they decided to build and distribute infringing products.
If you look at the extensive patent portfolio that’s already been granted they have a big problem. When you start to look at the patent apps that have yet to be granted the future looks even bleaker.
The courts are starting to speak and so far it’s not looking good for HTC, Samsung and Google.
Oh, you mean like 3g radio patents and other radio patents Samsung has over the iphone? You are so right, they are NOT obligated to license them to Apple anymore. Apple knew exactly what they were doing when making the first Iphone and subsequent models yet they decide to build and distribute infringing products.
You know what, Apple, go for it. Sue every company android, but in the end, guess who’s going to win: Motorola. Why? they INVENTED the cell phone and automatically the phone in Smart Phone and oh so many other cell phone technologies.
Please, PLEASE keep suing. We all want to see this.
You want to fight with Patents? OK FIGHT
What goes around comes around, and sometimes comes around HARDER.
Notice the picture at the top of the post shows the iPhone in the background, yet the screen sizes have equal area in the picture. In reality, HTC’s screen is about 50% larger, and being in the foreground should be significantly larger.
Microsoft copied apple- apple copied Microsoft. Apple copied many patents- many patents copied apple.
Patents are good but I I remember apple trying to patent touch screen tech. If we allow it apple/ Microsoft may control every patent. Samsung and htc do not threaten apple in any way and that is clear. Apple is just greedy I hope it bites them in the ass. I think the we should take down apple for patent terrorism.
iSue
I hate Apple. They do nothing but try and stop competition
Google is the one of the toughest competitor after purchasing Android and after the death of Steve jobs its now very tough for Apple to create such a huge market again
Well given that Obama is doing a complete overhaul of the patent office, I think apple needs to sue the bejesus out of everyone as much as they can. I think in the future the patent offices might just end up telling apple, if you don’t incorporate anything in to your products, how can you expect a patent to protect it? Apple is full of magical dreams and fairy dust wishes but yet their products that appear in the stores run last years technology and year by year they patent 5000 ideas (which are all good and possible) yet they choose to feed their userbase breadcrumbs. While all these other guys all have the desires and wishes to bring tomorrows technology to us today yet get stifled by apples strong arm policy of crying foul when someone else slips into first place. Anyone who has a “successful product” obvious ripped off apple cause only they can be successful.
Watching apple do business is like watching soccer. It’s up to the neck in action until the two players from opposing teams get within five feet of each other. Then the uniforms come off, the dresses come on and the drama queens have their day.
I hope Google/ HTC can wins this battle against Apple for the sake of innovation. In my opinion the Android Market is constantly improving and innovating its platform compared to Apple IOS.
Google does not yet own Motorola mobility.
HTC made many touch phones before the iPhone but not multi touch. That’s the game changer.
Samsung, Nokia, Motorola all have many communication patents. But they are obligated to license them under FRAND terms. If your have not looked it up it stands for Fair, reasonable and non discriminatory. Samsung made it’s patents available as part of a standard. They are entitled to compensation but they can’t discriminate against Apple and attempt to charge a fee that’s different from another company simply to leverage there violation of Apples IP. They can try but it’s likely to go nowhere or in the worst case be frowned upon by the court because they are obligated to provide access under the FRAND terms.
If your really interested in this I suggest that you check out: http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/
Even if they don’t own Motorola, Apple doesn’t stand a chance against Motorola and their patents. You know it, I know it. Say Google doesn’t end up completing the buy, and Apple attacks Google, I would have to say Moto would buy “android,” or acquire it, and boom, Apple has no play any more.
“But they are obligated to license them under FRAND terms. If your have not looked it up it stands for Fair, reasonable and non discriminatory. ”
OH you mean like patenting a square shaped pad with a screen on it? Thats reasonable no? Did i mention Apple still proceeded to sue Samsung even though Samsung tried to make it different and go through with the ban?
Apple can’t have it both ways. Either they are also Fair, reasonable and non discriminatory or they aren’t. Not to mention botching up the evidence for the Judge there, or are you going to deny that too.
You mentioned touch technology, playing by Apple terms seen here, HTC then has a right to sue Apple for the plain fact that its touch at all regarding the screen.
I suggest you look up and do YOUR research and read up on all the claims for every Apple Suit and read and look at all the patents involved.
The patent system is broken, why? because VERY generalized patents exist like the square shaped pad
UI, wise i can understand, Apple has at least some reason. But everything else, im sorry but apple has no ground. The Nexus S was involved in the suit, by the way, and it looks NOTHING like the iphone UI or shape or anything.
Again the Samsung Galaxy / S2 (in Europe) have at least some ground for Apple, ( and even then thats like HTC trying to sue Apple for Multi touch based on the fact they invented touch technology in the first place)[ You would argue similar but different, doesn’t that apply to ui too?] but when they include the Nexus S, that just screams BS from a company.
Apple has no obligation to license any of it’s patents. Motorola and Samsung do because they are standards based (FRAND) communication patents. Apple does not make the 3G chip set’s, they buy them. The company that sells the chip set would most likely need to obtain a license for the technology from the IP holder. Apple buys it’s 3G chip set from qualcomm. You can see the mess here:
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/10/11/apple-wants-qualcomm-patent-licensing-documents-to-undermine-samsung-lawsuit/
The patent that Samsung was found to be violating in Australia Apple has no obligation to license to Samsung. That’s why it’s banned and Samsung can’t do anything about it.
If Apple did alter the picture that would be a big mistake. The fact is that both devices were disclosed in great detail within a 44 page document including multiple pictures at the correct size ratio and physical specs. The suspect picture was just one of many correct pictures. Physical devices were also used in the case. Net result is that the device was banned in parts of europe.
HTC did not invent the touch screen. the technology has been around 40 years. Heck.. Now that I think about it the Apple Newton was on the market 20+ years ago, probably before any HTC product that I know of.
The breakthrough that makes a difference today came when Apple engineers developed a glass multi touch screen.
Steve Jobs stated at the D8 conference : “I had this idea about having a glass display, a multitouch display you could type on. I asked our people about it. And six months later they came back with this amazing display. And I gave it to one of our really brilliant UI guys. He then got inertial scrolling working and some other things, and I thought, ‘my god, we can build a phone with this’ and we put the tablet aside, and we went to work on the phone.”
This is not something that Moto, Google or HTC had before the iPhone. The multi touch along with all the UI patents are the big problem. The communication patents, even if Apple is in violation because they did not pay a royalty, won’t cost Apple much. They may already own license to them.
The bottom line is that we as consumers will suffer regardless of the outcome and the lawyers make out huge.
“The bottom line is that we as consumers will suffer regardless of the outcome and the lawyers make out huge. ”
Finally something you say I agree with. Apple is a patent troll: that’s a fact proven by looking at when they started suing. They didn’t think android was a valid competitor, they were wrong, and now they want to monopolize the smartphone. There are many patents in dispute at this moment on both camps. You can’t deny that, and its not just communication patents.
Patent troll? A patent troll is a company that buys patents to use them in lawsuits. If Google or Moto, Samsung or HTC had good IP to fight Apple with they would not be spending billions to try and buy patents to do battle.
I doubt that Apple mis judged that Android was a valid competitor. The patents that are in dispute from the Motorola, Samsung and HTC side are mostly communication related, not smart phone.
Apple has the right to monopolize technology that uses it’s patents, that’s how a patent should work. It should force the competition to find another solution. From what I read today that’s Samsung’s next move because they can’t get by Apples’s IP.
If you want to see the patent(s) that really have the Android camp freaked look up this:
7,966,578
And
7,479,949
Apparently just in the past hour another blow for Samsung.
“SYDNEY—Apple Inc. won a victory on Thursday in its global patent battle with Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. when a judge in Australia upheld a temporary injunction blocking the South Korean company from selling its Galaxy Tab 10.1 tablet computer in the Pacific nation. Justice Annabelle Bennett ruled that the Samsung product couldn’t be sold in Australia if it used features such as touch-screen technology that Apple claims infringe patents used in its popular iPad tablet.”
It’s very difficult to get a temporary injunction on a product unless it’s very clearly in violation.
If Apple wins the suit against Samsung based on the UI patent, then HTC will win the suit against Apple on the touch technology. touch vs multitouch is = Touchwiz vs iOS.
Defense is basically: Similar but different.